From ljk4 at msn.com Thu Sep 1 00:49:57 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 00:49:57 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] FW: JPL: Jupiter-bound Space Probe Captures Earth & Moon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 21:33:38 -0400 > Subject: JPL: Jupiter-bound Space Probe Captures Earth & Moon > From: rick.fienberg at aas.org > To: Rick.Fienberg at aas.org > > THE FOLLOWING RELEASE WAS RECEIVED FROM THE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY > IN PASADENA, CALIFORNIA, AND IS FORWARDED FOR YOUR INFORMATION. > (FORWARDING DOES NOT IMPLY ENDORSEMENT BY THE AMERICAN ASTRONOMICAL > SOCIETY.) Rick Fienberg, AAS Press Officer: rick.fienberg at aas.org, +1 > 202-328-2010 x116. > > August 30, 2011 > > Contacts: > DC Agle > Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. > +1 818-393-9011 > agle at jpl.nasa.gov > > Dwayne Brown > NASA Headquarters, Washington > +1 202-358-1726 > dwayne.c.brown at nasa.gov > > Text & Images: > http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2011-271 > > JUPITER-BOUND SPACE PROBE > CAPTURES EARTH AND MOON > > On its way to the biggest planet in the solar system -- Jupiter, > NASA?s Juno spacecraft took time to capture its home planet and its > natural satellite -- the Moon. > > ?This is a remarkable sight people get to see all too rarely,? said > Scott Bolton, Juno principal investigator from the Southwest Research > Institute in San Antonio. ?This view of our planet shows how Earth > looks from the outside, illustrating a special perspective of our role > and place in the universe. We see a humbling yet beautiful view of > ourselves.? > > The image was taken by the spacecraft?s camera, JunoCam, on Aug. 26 > when the spacecraft was about 6 million miles (9.66 million > kilometers) away. The image was taken as part of the mission team?s > checkout of the Juno spacecraft. The team is conducting its initial > detailed checks on the spacecraft?s instruments and subsystems after > its launch on Aug. 5. > > Juno covered the distance from Earth to the Moon (about 250,000 miles, > or 402,000 kilometers) in less than one day?s time. It will take the > spacecraft another five years and 1,740 million miles (2,800 million > kilometers) to complete the journey to Jupiter. The spacecraft will > orbit the planet?s poles 33 times and use its eight science > instruments to probe beneath the gas giant?s obscuring cloud cover to > learn more about its origins, structure, atmosphere and magnetosphere, > and look for a potential solid planetary core. > > The solar-powered Juno spacecraft lifted off from Cape Canaveral Air > Force Station in Florida at 9:25 a.m. PDT (12:25 p.m. EDT) on Aug. 5 > to begin its five-year journey to Jupiter. > > # # # > > JPL manages the Juno mission for the principal investigator, Scott > Bolton, of Southwest Research Institute in San Antonio. The Juno > mission is part of the New Frontiers Program managed at NASA?s > Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala. Lockheed Martin Space > Systems, Denver, built the spacecraft. JPL is a division of the > California Institute of Technology in Pasadena. > > More information about Juno: > * http://www.nasa.gov/juno > * http://missionjuno.swri.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > If you do not wish to receive press releases that are forwarded to the > news media by the American Astronomical Society, please unsubscribe by > replying accordingly to any incoming press release, or send e-mail to > rick.fienberg at aas.org. Requests for referrals to experts on astronomy > and space science should be sent to the same address. Rick Fienberg, > AAS Press Officer, +1 202-328-2010 x116, @AAS_Press (Twitter). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Thu Sep 1 00:51:27 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 00:51:27 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] FW: Centauri Dreams - Entering the Age of Sail In-Reply-To: <20cf303f6a54ac5ced04abbdb2ed@google.com> References: <20cf303f6a54ac5ced04abbdb2ed@google.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 19:05:53 +0000 Subject: Centauri Dreams From: gilster at mindspring.com To: ljk4 at msn.com Centauri Dreams Centauri Dreams Entering the Age of Sail Posted: 30 Aug 2011 04:44 AM PDT I see that the new agenda for the 100 Year Starship Study symposium has now been posted. The meeting will be held in Orlando in about a month, set up along a number of parallel tracks from interstellar destinations to propulsion options and habitats, a wide-ranging set of sessions that will allow many in the far-flung interstellar community to exchange ideas in person for the first time. DARPA?s intention is to spur research and select an organization that will sustain and develop interstellar ideas over the next century, an exciting long-term prospect indeed. That interstellar flight demands long-term thinking should be obvious given the state of propulsion research today. Over the last sixty years, numerous ideas on how to drive a vehicle to a substantial percentage of the speed of light have been advanced, but almost all of these remain no more than concepts in journals. We?re not remotely at the stage where we can choose a single option as the likely propulsion choice for development. Rather, we?re theorizing and experimenting and seeing where many different strands of thinking lead, all of which takes me to the solar sail. Jim Essig was kind enough to pass along a recent story in Science News dealing with current experimentation and planning on solar sail ideas. Here we?re dealing with a technology that, unlike almost all the other interstellar options, has actually flown, even if we?re still in the preliminary phases of evaluating the technology?s performance. One day it may be that we?ll push enormous sails with laser beams or microwaves, but for now we?re talking about small attempts to measure the effect of momentum transfer by solar photons to push a spacecraft. Image: A close-up of the fully deployed IKAROS sail. Credit: JAXA. The Japanese success with the IKAROS sail has been marvelous to watch as the 20-meter sail became operational in interplanetary space, demonstrating an innovative liquid crystal technology that allowed mission scientists to change the sail?s reflectivity and affect its course. Bear in mind that IKAROS is to be the first of a family of Japanese sails, the next model being 50-meters across and intended for launch to Jupiter and the asteroids. That mission will focus on propulsion systems that combine the solar sail with an ion drive for interplanetary journeys. We?ve talked extensively in these pages about IKAROS as well as NASA?s NanoSail-D, the latter whimsically called LunchSat because the budget-strapped team could only find time to work on it during lunch. Nonetheless, the doughty engineers under Dean Alhorn built two 3-meter sails that fit into a CubeSat, attempting to launch the first without success because of the failure of the Falcon 1 rocket that would have taken it into space. The second was launched last November, went silent for weeks, and suddenly deployed and reported in for duty. Alhorn has now set his sights on a larger sail to follow on to NanoSail-D, which will re-enter the atmosphere within months. The NASA effort had downsized since the days when the agency was testing two 20-meter x 20-meter solar sails at a research facility in Ohio [although see Jack Crawford's comment below], but the fact that NanoSail-D could become operational is a testament to the enthusiasm of scientists working the mission. And the new sail possibility is a 38-meter x 38-meter sail demonstrator, as discussed in this news release from the Office of the Chief Technologist. The Science News story is well worth your time for its encapsuled analysis of where we are in solar sail development. We now look toward the Planetary Society, where Lou Friedman brings his own extensive sail experience to the building of three potential designs. From the story: Closest in concept to the original grand dreams about solar sailing, yet freighted with the memory of a recent failure, is the LightSail project of the Planetary Society. Friedman, its architect, has seen pretty much everything in the world of solar sailing; he worked on the original Halley proposal in the 1970s and spearheaded the society?s drive to fly a privately funded sail in the early 2000s. That effort, paid for mainly by an entertainment company led by Carl Sagan?s widow, ended with a splash in 2005 when the Russian rocket it was supposed to ride from a nuclear submarine failed to reach orbit. After licking his wounds, Friedman decided to work with NanoSail-D in its initial stages. That restored his enthusiasm and inspired LightSail. ?We got so interested in the design that we said we?ll go further: We?ll instrument the craft and build in attitude control and a telemetry system,? says Friedman. Thanks to CubeSats, the sail could be built for less money than the society?s last, failed attempt. Image: Chris Biddy (left) and Lou Friedman at Stellar Exploration (San Luis Obispo, CA) for the first full-scale deployment test of the sail on LightSail-1. Credit: The Planetary Society Credit: The Planetary Society. Like Alhorn?s NASA team, the Planetary Society is building two sails in case something goes wrong, and envisions future versions that will not only achieve higher Earth orbit but travel to the L1 Lagrangian point between the Earth and the Sun. Other sail projects to watch with interest include a consortium from the University of Surrey and aerospace firm Astrium, an aerospace subsidiary of the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) that is building a 5-meter sail for CubeSat deployment for launch some time in 2012. The same team is studying sails as a way to deorbit satellites, removing space debris that poses a collision hazard in orbit ? this is also part of the thinking behind the NanoSail-D concept. And we?re still not through. The German space agency DLR and the European Space Agency are working on a series of solar sails called Gossamer that would experiment with larger sails as technology demonstrators of increasing size and complexity, while engineers at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign are studying new deployment methods that involve spinning deployment of sail blades that could one day lead to a spinning sail with rotating blades as large as 10 kilometers long. As Science News points out, what will move the solar sail idea forward is not just this early experimentation, but the follow-on missions that target specific tasks that are optimized for sails and defy other propulsion techniques. In such ways does a promisng space technology begin to get the shakeout in space it needs to mature. Image: ESA & DLR Project Gossamer in orbit. Credit: DLR. You are subscribed to email updates from Centauri Dreams To stop receiving these emails, you may unsubscribe now. Email delivery powered by Google Google Inc., 20 West Kinzie, Chicago IL USA 60610 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From astronautix at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 04:22:37 2011 From: astronautix at gmail.com (Mark Wade) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 10:22:37 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Baikonur - the Film Message-ID: I haven't seen this film, but saw some clips on arte last night. It looked charming; some of it shot at the cosmodrome: http://www.baikonur.com/ ?Whatever falls from heaven, you may keep.? So goes the unwritten law of the Kazakh steppes. A law avidly adhered to by the inhabitants of a small village, who collect the space debris that falls downrange from the nearby Baikonur space station. The last two youthful members of the village are the radio operator Iskander, known as Gagarin, and the spirited Nazira. While Nazira finds it increasing difficult to conceal her love for Iskander by means of her unconventional behaviour, Iskander is evidently not only crazy about Baikonur and the vastness of outer space, but also deeply smitten with the beautiful French astronaut Julie Mah?, whose journey to the stars he wistfully follows on television. When Julie literally ?falls from heaven? in a small space capsule, it?s Iskander who finds her unconscious. Since Julie can no longer remember anything, Iskander is able to pretend that they are engaged to be married, turning the ancient law of the steppes to his own advantage. But even the most romantic lie cannot remain undiscovered forever. And soon ?Gagarin? no longer knows where he really belongs nor, more importantly, to whom... -- Mark Wade Encyclopedia Astronautica http://www.astronautix.com/ astronautix at gmail.com From kgottschalk at uwc.ac.za Thu Sep 1 09:58:15 2011 From: kgottschalk at uwc.ac.za (Keith Gottschalk) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 15:58:15 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] "de-manned"...an alternative view (humor) In-Reply-To: <4e5e5846.0295e50a.40c8.ffff8b46@mx.google.com> References: <4e5e5846.0295e50a.40c8.ffff8b46@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4E5FAB97020000A6000111F7@uwc.ac.za> I suggest "temporary evacuation". But this is a worst-case scenario. I am confident that between Roskosmos & SpaceX, ISS shall triumph! -Keith >>> On 2011/08/31 at 05:50 PM, in message <4e5e5846.0295e50a.40c8.ffff8b46 at mx.google.com>, "Peter Pesavento" wrote: Well, It*s just jargon*. Extra-vehicular activity*. = space walk De-manned = unoccupied De-tank = empty Or maybe they were thinking*.. astronauts and cosmonauts are *Da Man**..as in, *U Da Man !!!* (with the index fingers of both hands pointed at the person or persons in question) while they are flying in the heavens over our heads* Sorry. Can*t help myself. Semantics aside, it*s a serious thing if the ISS will be vacated/left/emptied/departed from/deserted/abandoned/refrain from being used/retreated from with all due haste/absconded from/beat it/break away from/clear out from/cut out/bug out/decamp/ ditch/emigrate/escape/exit/flee/forsake/give up the ship/go away from/head out from/move out/pull out/quit/relinquish/remove themselves from/retire from/ride off from/ride away from/say goodbye to/scram/split/split in quintuple time/take a hike from/vamoose/withdraw/cede occupation/forbear for an extended period/hand over to the vacuum/quit/terminate the mission I guess most of these sound unpalatable to NASA, so *de-man* sounds appropriately NASA-ish*.or, as to be interpreted that the grouping of *U Da Man !!!!* in the heavens have to bug out with all alacrity*. LOL J J -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- All Email originating from UWC is covered by disclaimer http://www.uwc.ac.za/emaildisclaimer From ljk4 at msn.com Thu Sep 1 12:52:51 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES ) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 16:52:51 +0000 Subject: [FPSPACE] Fwd: Announcements: Phobos-Soil (Phobos-Grunt) Guest Investigator AO; Suzaku 7th European AO Message-ID: ---------- Sent from AT&T Wireless using Windows Live Hotmail -----Original Message----- From: SciTech.editorial at esa.int Sent: 9/1/2011 4:35:47 PM To: ljk4 at msn.com Subject: Announcements: Phobos-Soil (Phobos-Grunt) Guest Investigator AO; Suzaku 7th European AO ANNOUNCEMENTS Two Announcements of Opportunity are issued today, 1 September 2011: + PHOBOS-SOIL (PHOBOS-GRUNT) ANNOUNCEMENT OF OPPORTUNITY FOR GUEST INVESTIGATORS This Announcement of Opportunity solicits research proposals for scientific analysis of data, or theoretical and/or modelling studies supported by data, from the Russian Phobos-Soil (Phobos-Grunt) mission, through participation in the Phobos-Soil Guest Investigator Programme. Scientists from the Member States of ESA and from the Russian Federation are invited to respond. The deadline for proposal submissions is 30 November 2011. http://sci.esa.int/Phobos-Soil-AO + SUZAKU 7TH ANNOUNCEMENT OF OPPORTUNITY The Seventh European Announcement of Opportunity for observations to be performed with Suzaku between April 2012 and March 2013 is now open. Scientists belonging to institutions within ESA Member States are invited to respond. The deadline for receipt of proposals is 10 November 2011 at 16:30 CET. http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=49106 =================================================== KEEP IN TOUCH + SCITECH RSS Subscribe to SciTech's RSS (Really Simple Syndication) feed to get the latest updates delivered directly to your desktop. http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=37599 + SCITECH SCREENSAVER Don't forget to download the SciTech Screensaver a multi-facetted application that allows you to keep abreast of status reports, news and announcements of events taking place at ESA Science. http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=34651 =================================================== To change your subscription options, or unsubscribe at any time, follow the link here: http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/subscribe/ Please contact us through the SciTech Website: http://sci.esa.int =================================================== ================================================================================================ This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or addressees only. The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole or in part) of its content is not permitted. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the sender. Please consider the environment before printing this email. ================================================================================================= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dstdba at post4.tele.dk Thu Sep 1 14:34:16 2011 From: dstdba at post4.tele.dk (Jens Kieffer-Olsen) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 20:34:16 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] demanned In-Reply-To: <4E5E141D.2080901@telenet.be> References: <4E5E141D.2080901@telenet.be> Message-ID: <003801cc68d5$c36ff980$4a4fec80$@tele.dk> Yes Zeger, 'demanned' is not just an issue of NASA slang, but of sexist NASA slang! Let's suggest instead that NASA use the word 'deoccupied'! An example of the use of similar slang may be found at Tane's blog http://www.myspace.com/tane_1/blog/241361559 from where I quote: "Why Hawaii needs the US to deoccupy its country". -- Jens Kieffer-Olsen Slagelse, Denmark -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: Zeger Nuyens [mailto:dokter.nuyens at telenet.be] Sendt: 31. august 2011 13:00 Til: fpspace at friends-partners.org Emne: [FPSPACE] demanned I must admit that when I saw "demanned" I was thinking of something completely different... Zeger Nuyens > How about the perfectly valid English word "unoccupied"? > > Phillip Clark From pjp961 at svol.net Thu Sep 1 14:55:43 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 14:55:43 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called here "Shenlong" Message-ID: <4e5fd53f.41132a0a.502b.0087@mx.google.com> You can read about it here at the website of the International Assessment and Strategy Center.. Article by Richard Fisher (contributor to a number of periodicals, including Defense Technology International, Aviation Week, and Foreign Policy) Title: "China's Space Plane Program" (Has illustrations and video captures) Published July 27, 2011 http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.253/pub_detail.asp If anyone who has expertise would like to comment on what Fisher is saying, please hold forth -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From routierx at tpg.com.au Thu Sep 1 17:01:36 2011 From: routierx at tpg.com.au (Brett & Sue) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 07:01:36 +1000 Subject: [FPSPACE] demanned In-Reply-To: <003801cc68d5$c36ff980$4a4fec80$@tele.dk> References: <4E5E141D.2080901@telenet.be> <003801cc68d5$c36ff980$4a4fec80$@tele.dk> Message-ID: <001401cc68ea$57b11200$07133600$@tpg.com.au> De-crewed? -----Original Message----- From: fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org [mailto:fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org] On Behalf Of Jens Kieffer-Olsen Sent: Friday, 2 September 2011 4:34 AM To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] demanned Yes Zeger, 'demanned' is not just an issue of NASA slang, but of sexist NASA slang! Let's suggest instead that NASA use the word 'deoccupied'! An example of the use of similar slang may be found at Tane's blog http://www.myspace.com/tane_1/blog/241361559 from where I quote: "Why Hawaii needs the US to deoccupy its country". -- Jens Kieffer-Olsen Slagelse, Denmark -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: Zeger Nuyens [mailto:dokter.nuyens at telenet.be] Sendt: 31. august 2011 13:00 Til: fpspace at friends-partners.org Emne: [FPSPACE] demanned I must admit that when I saw "demanned" I was thinking of something completely different... Zeger Nuyens > How about the perfectly valid English word "unoccupied"? > > Phillip Clark _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace From davidlrickman at aol.com Fri Sep 2 01:09:45 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 01:09:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Cosmonaut Winch on Lunniy Korabl Message-ID: <8CE3745AA0D9623-1268-47B93@webmail-d137.sysops.aol.com> Hello, In the "Cabin Module" section of Filin's "Memories of our Lunar Ship" there is a brief reference to a winch being invented to haul a Lunar Cosmonaut back into the LK in case they lost their ability to perform. Does anybody know if this winch was actually constructed, or was this just one of many designs that never made it off the drawing board? Thanks in advance! Best Regards, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phillipclark at btinternet.com Fri Sep 2 02:21:31 2011 From: phillipclark at btinternet.com (Phillip Clark) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 07:21:31 +0100 Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called here "Shenlong" In-Reply-To: <4e5fd53f.41132a0a.502b.0087@mx.google.com> References: <4e5fd53f.41132a0a.502b.0087@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I am sure that there are those who will howl in anguish about the possible Chinese shuttle being duel-role civil/military, totally ignoring the fact that this is how the US shuttle was intended to operate. I think that it is reasonable for the Chinese to be THINKING about reuseable launch vehicles, but I am sure that Shenzhou and its derivatives will remain the focus of China's piloted space programme for the next decade and a half at least. Phillip Clark ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pesavento To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 7:55 PM Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported,called here "Shenlong" You can read about it here at the website of the International Assessment and Strategy Center.. Article by Richard Fisher (contributor to a number of periodicals, including Defense Technology International, Aviation Week, and Foreign Policy) Title: "China's Space Plane Program" (Has illustrations and video captures) Published July 27, 2011 http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.253/pub_detail.asp If anyone who has expertise would like to comment on what Fisher is saying, please hold forth ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BKLong at yandex.ru Fri Sep 2 07:57:36 2011 From: BKLong at yandex.ru (=?koi8-r?B?4c7E0sXF1yDzxdLHxco=?=) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 15:57:36 +0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] ICBM Message-ID: <54521314964656@web74.yandex.ru> hi all http://cosmopark.ru/jbookh.htm my book is still avalilable if one knows how to use e-mail. Price is 500rub without delivery. experience show that it reach Europe or Israel about 20 days by air mail. Sergey V. Andreev From ljk4 at msn.com Fri Sep 2 08:06:59 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES ) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 12:06:59 +0000 Subject: [FPSPACE] Fwd: [New post] Course Syllabus for "Spaceflight and Society: Exploring the History of the Final Frontier" Message-ID: ---------- Sent from AT&T Wireless using Windows Live Hotmail -----Original Message----- From: Roger Launius's Blog Sent: 9/2/2011 11:53:41 AM To: ljk4 at msn.com Subject: [New post] Course Syllabus for "Spaceflight and Society: Exploring the History of the Final Frontier" [http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/488baba4b54ec638fa19eeebd09b6b69?s=48&d=identicon&r=G] Course Syllabus for "Spaceflight and Society: Exploring the History of the Final Frontier" launiusr | September 2, 2011 at 11:53 am | Tags: 1960s, American exceptionalism, Apollo, Ares I, Buzz Aldrin, challenger accident, columbia accident, Department of Defense, Earth science, global warming, History, international relations, International Space Station, JFK, MLB, Moon, NASA, presidential power, public perceptions, public policy, space science, space shuttle, U.S. Civil Space, Wernher von Braun | Categories: Apollo, Applications Satellites, Cold War Competition, Earth Science, History, International Space Station, Lunar Exploration, Personal, Politics, Science, Space, Space Shuttle | URL: http://wp.me/pwYu1-C3 Beginning on August 31 I started teaching as an adjunct instructor at the Johns Hopkins University. The course is "Spaceflight and Society: Exploring the History of the Final Frontier." Only one class meeting thus far, but it has been great fun. I am posting the syllabus before to see where I am coming from with the this class. There are a lot of readings, and I believe these are some of the best available on their individual subjects, but if you have suggestions for alternatives I'd very much like to hear from you. Spaceflight and Society: Exploring the History of the Final Frontier BASIC INFORMATION: * Class meets Wednesdays, 1:30-3:50 p.m.; this means: 140 minutes (break will be included) * JHU classes start August 29th, so our first class will be Aug. 31st * The only holiday off will be???Wednesday, November 23 * November 30th is the last day???of class * This means: 13 class sessions * Students will then have a week off * December 7-16 are final examination days ??? COURSE DESCRIPTION: This course explores the history of spaceflight, emphasizing its civil component, but also including national security and commercial activities, and the interactions among all components of spaceflight around the world. It represents an examination of the origins, evolution, current status, and future prospects of U.S. space policies and programs. It will cover civilian, military, and national security space programs and the space activities of the private sector, and the interactions among these four sectors of space activity. This examination will be cast in the context of the space activities of other countries, and of international cooperation and competition in space. The goal of the course is to give the student an exposure to the debates and decisions that have shaped U.S. efforts in space to date, and to the policy issues that must be addressed in order to determine the future goals, content, pace, and organization of U.S. space activities, both public and private.??? Read this syllabus and all other handouts carefully. They are your guide for this course, and they spell out the work you have to do. This course meets every Wednesday, 1:30-3:50 p.m.; we will plan on one break in the middle of this time slot GRADING: Grades will be calculated according to the following scores: ???97-100 = A+ 94-96 = A 90-93 = A- 87-89 = B+ 84-86 = B 80-83 = B- 77-79 = C+ 74-76 = C 70-73 = C- 67-69 = D+ 64-66 = D 60-63 = D+ ?????? 0-59 = F REQUIREMENTS: There will be two literature review essays. In addition, we will hold periodic discussions in which your participation is required. The formula for your grade will be as follows:??? 45% 1st literature review essay + 45% 2d literature review essay + 10% (class discussion) = 100% 10%: Attendance and participation will be based on attendance and participation in sections. We will take attendance at each session. In addition, each week we will ask students which readings they plan on undertaking for the next week. We will take action to ensure that each reading is covered by some part of the class and the discussion we will call on students to summarize???and discuss these???articles. 90% Literature Review Essays: There will be two review essays of literature assigned in class. Each review will consist of not less than 1,200 nor more than 2,000 words, and include a discussion of the assigned readings that you undertook in the sessions each week. Each essay must state the key issues raised in the readings, comparing them one to another, and synthesizing how and why they make a contribution to understanding the subject. The readings reviewed will be among those recommended in major sections of the course. These review essays will be completed in 12-point Times and be double-spaced with 1.0 inch margins, page-numbering, and in-paragraph citations. The student's name and contact information must be included at the beginning of the essay. Each essay is worth 45 points.??? Late Review Essays: Review essays turned in after the due date will be downgraded one letter grade per week that it is not submitted. Papers more than two weeks late will not be graded and the student will no credit for this work. Please be advised that only in the direst of situations an "incomplete" may be assigned; as I will be on campus only for the fall semester it will require an exceptional rationale to warrant an incomplete. RULES FOR LECTURES/PLENARIES: There will be no electronic devices used in lectures, except for laptops, on which you are allowed to take notes. Laptops are widely misused in lectures and should you be caught using one in any other way than to take notes, your use privileges will be rescinded. Part of the educational experience is to develop your ability to listen to lectures and to extract the important ideas through note-taking. This is an important skill that you need to develop not only now but also for your future career. As a result, only the outlines of the key concepts and discussion questions will be available in the study guide on the instructor's web site. Part of your grade will be based on your ability to listen and organize oral material into coherent ideas. People who are good at developing this skill will have a head start in their future careers.??? If you miss a lecture, you may ask for a copy of the notes from other students in the class. The notes may not be posted on a web site, made available for file sharing, or distributed in any medium (print or electronic). The only exception is to provide a print copy to one or two students who have been absent from class, unless you first have approval from the instructor. The content of the lectures are the intellectual property of the instructor, and they are not for public distribution. If you loan your notes to someone else, you should indicate who you let use the notes. ACADEMIC DISHONESTY: Student-teacher relationships are built on trust. Students must trust that teachers have made appropriate decisions about the structure and content of a course, and teachers must trust that the assignments students turn in are their own. Acts that violate this trust undermine the educational enterprise. They contradict our very reason for academic activity, and students should note that penalties for dishonesty, in particular concerning plagiarism, can be quite harsh.??? There are several types of academic dishonesty that you should be aware of for this course: 1. Copying or cheating in any way will result in an F in the course. 2. Copying another source in a writing assignment, such as an article or another student's assignment, without using quotation marks and citing the reference is unacceptable. If the plagiarism is substantial (more than one sentence), you will lose one letter grade in the course for the first instance. You may receive an F in the course for additional instances. 3. Copying minor quotations of a phrase or half sentence or using the ideas of others without attribution. This is known as "patchwork plagiarism" and "theft of ideas." We tend to treat this problem with a warning at the beginning, but if it continues, you will lose one letter grade in the final grade for the course for each instance. When in doubt, add a footnote and a reference. 4. Posting yours or others' lectures notes from the plenary lectures on a web site or making them more generally available in any way (emailing, file sharing, print files, etc.), or making unauthorized recordings in any medium of the plenary lectures. You will receive an F in the course for this form of academic dishonesty, and instances that occur after the course is over will face a retrospective change of grade to an F. COURSE READINGS: * Howard E. McCurdy, Space and the American Imagination (Johns Hopkins University Press, 2010 second edition). Be sure to get this second edition, not the 1997 first edition. * An FTP site has been set up with all of the readings other than Space and the American Imagination.?????? CLASS SCHEDULE AND ASSIGNMENTS:??? August 31, 2011: Session 1?????? ????????????????????????????????? Why Go Into Space? Required Readings: * Howard E. McCurdy, Space and the American Imagination, pp. 11-59. Choose One of the Following: * William Sims Bainbridge, "Motivations for Space Exploration," Futures 41, Issue 8 (October 2009): 514-22. * Daniel F. Lester and Michael Robinson, "Visions of Exploration," Space Policy 25 (November 2009): 236-43. * John M. Logsdon, "A Sustainable Rationale for Human Spaceflight," Issues in Science and Technology, Winter 2004, pp. 31-34. * Asif A. Siddiqi, "Spaceflight in the National Imagination," in Steven J. Dick, ed., Remembering the Space Age: Proceedings of the Fiftieth Anniversary Conference, (NASA SP-2008-4703, 2008), pp. 17-35. September 7, 2011: Session 2?????????????????????????????? Origins of the Space Age Required Readings: * Howard E. McCurdy, Space and the American Imagination, pp. 60-92. Choose One of the Following: * Alexander C.T. Geppert, "Flights of Fancy: Outer Space and the European Imagination, 1923-1969," in Steven J. Dick, ed., Remembering the Space Age: Proceedings of the Fiftieth Anniversary Conference (NASA-SP-2008-4703, 2008), pp. 585-99. * J.D. Hunley, "The Enigma of Robert Goddard," Technology and Culture 36 (April 1995): 327-50. * J.R. McNeill, "Gigantic Follies? Human Exploration and the Space Age in Long-term Historical Perspective," in Steven J. Dick, ed., Remembering the Space Age: Proceedings of the Fiftieth Anniversary Conference (NASA-SP-2008-4703, 2008), pp. 3-16. * Asif A. Siddiqi, "The Rockets' Red Glare: Technology, Conflict, and Terror in the Soviet Union," Technology and Culture 44 (July 2003): 470-501 September 14, 2011: Session 3???????????????????????? National Security Space and its Discontents??? Required Readings: * Roger D. Launius, "National Security, Space, and the Course of Recent U.S.History," in Paul G. Gillespie and Grant T. Weller, eds., Harnessing the Heavens: National Defense Through Space. Chicago, IL: Imprint Publications, 2008), pp. 5-23. Choose One of the Following: * Dwayne A. Day, "Cover Stories and Hidden Agendas: Early American Space and National Security Policy," in Roger D. Launius, John M. Logsdon, and Robert W. Smith, Reconsidering Sputnik: Forty Years Since the Soviet Satellite (2000), pp. 161-195. * Peter L. Hays, "NASA and the Department of Defense: Enduring Themes in Three Key Areas," in Steven J. Dick and Roger D. Launius, eds., Critical Issues in the History of Spaceflight??? (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2006-4702, 2006);, pp. 199-238. * Matthew Mowthorpe, "U.S. Military Space Policy, 1945-92," Space Policy 18 (2002): 25-36. * Asif A. Siddiqi, "Soviet Space Power during the Cold War," in Paul G. Gillespie and Grant T. Weller, eds., Harnessing the Heavens: National Defense Through Space (Chicago, IL: Imprint Publications, 2008) pp. 135-50. ???September 21, 2011: Session 4???????????????????????? Spaceflight and American Culture Required Readings: * Howard E. McCurdy, Space and the American Imagination, pp. 308-24.??? Choose One of the Following: * Matthew H. Hersch, "High Fashion: The Women's Undergarment Industry and the Foundations of American Spaceflight," Fashion Theory 13, no. 3 (2009): 345-70. * Roger D. Launius, "Public Opinion Polls and Perceptions of U.S. Human Spaceflight." Space Policy 19 (August 2003): 163-75. * Peter Redfield, "Beneath a Modern Sky: Space Technology and Its Place on the Ground," Science, Technology & Human Values 21 (Summer 1996): 251-74. * Daniel Sage, "Giant Leaps and Forgotten Steps: NASA and the Performance of Gender," Sociological Review 57 (2009): 146-63. September 28, 2011: Session 5???????????????????????? The Evolution of Space Science??? Required Readings: * Howard E. McCurdy, Space and the American Imagination, pp. 120-53. Choose One of the Following: * W. Henry Lambright, NASA and the Environment: The Case of Ozone Depletion, Monograph in Aerospace History, No. 38 (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2005-4538, 2006). * ???Arturo Russo, "Europe's Path to Mars: The European Space Agency's Mars Express Mission," Historical Studies in the Natural Sciences 41 (Spring 2011): 123-78. * Robert W. Smith and W. Patrick McCray, "Beyond the Hubble Space Telescope: Early Development of the Next Generation Space Telescope," in H.A. Thronson, et al., eds., Astrophysics in the Next Decade: The James Webb Space Telescope and Concurrent Facilities (New York: Spring Science, 2009), pp. 31-50. * David J. Stevenson, "Planetary Science: A Space Odyssey," Science 287 (February 11, 2000): 997-99, 1001-03, 1005. October 5, 2011: Session 6????????? ????????????????????????????????? The Race to the Moon Required Readings: * Howard E. McCurdy, Space and the American Imagination, pp. 93-119.??? Choose One of the Following: * Andrew Chaikin, "Live from the Moon: The Societal Impact of Apollo," in Steven J. Dick and Roger D. Launius, eds., Societal Impact of Spaceflight (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2007-4801, 2007), pp. 53-66. * W.D. Kay, "Problem Definitions and Policy Contradictions: John F. Kennedy and the 'Space Race'," Policy Studies Journal 31???(March 2003): 53-72. * Roger D. Launius, "Perceptions of Apollo: Myth, Nostalgia, Memory or all of the Above?"???Space Policy 21 (May 2005): 129-39. * David A. Mindell, "Human and Machine in the History of Spaceflight," in Steven J. Dick and Roger D. Launius, ed., Critical Issues in the History of Spaceflight (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2006-4702, 2006), pp. 141-62. October 12, 2011: Session 7??????????????????????????????????????? What Do You Do for an Encore? Required Readings: * Howard E. McCurdy, Space and the American Imagination, pp. 154-80. Choose One of the Following: * John M. Logsdon, "The Space Shuttle Program: A Policy Failure?" Science 232, (May 30, 1986): 1099-1105. * Howard E. McCurdy, "Organization Decline: NASA and the Life Cycle of Bureaus," Public Administration Review 51 (July-August 1991): 308-15. * Hugh R. Slotten, "Satellite Communications, Globalization, and the Cold War," Technology and Culture 43 (April 2002): 315-50. * Brian Woods, "A Political History of NASA's Space Shuttle: The Development Years, 1972-1982," Sociological Review 57 (2009): 25-46. *** First Review Essay Due *** October 19, 2011: Session 8??? ????????????????????????????????? The Space Shuttle - Creature of Compromise Required Readings: * Howard E. McCurdy, Space and the American Imagination, pp. 207-35. Choose One of the Following: * Andrew J. Butrica, "The 'Right' Stuff: The Reagan Revolution and the U.S. Space Program," in Steven J. Dick, ed., Remembering the Space Age: Proceedings of the Fiftieth Anniversary Conference (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2008-4703, 2008), pp. 121-34. * Amy Foster, "Coping with Celebrity: Women as Astronauts and Heroes," in Paul G. Gillespie and Grant T. Weller, eds., Harnessing the Heavens: National Defense Through Space. Chicago, IL: Imprint Publications, 2008), pp. 165-75. * Joseph Lorenzo Hall, "Columbia and Challenger: Organizational Failure at NASA," Space Policy 19 (November 2003): 239-47. * Diane Vaughan, "Changing NASA: The Challenges of Organizational System Failures," in Steven J. Dick and Roger D. Launius, ed., Critical Issues in the History of Spaceflight (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2006-4702, 2006), pp. 349-75. ???October 26, 2011: Session 9??????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????? The Challenge of the Space Station ???Required Readings: * Howard E. McCurdy, Space and the American Imagination, pp. 181-206. ???Choose One of the Following: * Sylvia D. Fries, "2001 to 1984: Political Environment and the Design of NASA's Space Station System," Technology and Culture 29 (July 1988): 568-93. * W. Henry Lambright, "Leadership and Large-Scale Technology: The Case of the International Space Station,"???Space Policy 21 (August 2005): 195-203. * Roger D. Launius, "Space Stations for the United States: An Idea Whose Time Has Come-And Gone?" Acta Astronautica 62 (May-June 2008): 539-55. * John J. Madison and Howard E. McCurdy, "Spending Without Results: Lessons from the Space Station Program," Space Policy 15 (November 1999): 213-21. ???November 2, 2011: Session 10??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Spaceflight in the International Context Required Readings: * John M. Logsdon, "The Development of International Space Cooperation," in John M. Logsdon, et al., eds., Exploring the Unknown: Selected Documents in the Evolution of the U.S. Civil Space Program, Volume II (Washington, DC: NASA SP-4407, 1996), pp. 1-57.??? Choose One of the Following: * James R. Hansen, "The Great Leap Upward: China's Human Spaceflight Program and Chinese National Identity," in Steven J. Dick, ed., Remembering the Space Age: Proceedings of the Fiftieth Anniversary Conference (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2008-4703, 2008), pp. 109-20. * John Krige, "Technology, Foreign Policy and International Collaboration in Space," in Steven J. Dick and Roger D. Launius, eds., Critical Issues in History of Spaceflight (Washington DC: NASA SP-2006-4702, 2006), pp. 239-60. * Roger D. Launius, "United States Space Cooperation and Competition: Historical Reflections," Astropolitics: The International Journal of Space Politics & Policy 7/2 (2009): 89-100. * Asif A. Siddiqi, "Competing Technologies, National(ist) Narratives, and Universal Claims: Toward a Global History of Space Exploration," Technology and Culture 51 (April 2010): 425-43. ???November 9, 2011: Session 11??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Things Recent and (con)Temporary Required Readings: * Howard E. McCurdy, Space and the American Imagination, 268-307.??? Choose One of the Following: * Andrew J. Butrica, "Reusable Launch Vehicles or Expendable Launch Vehicles? A Perennial Debate," in Steven J. Dick and Roger D. Launius, eds., Critical Issues in History of Spaceflight (Washington DC: NASA SP-2006-4702, 2006), pp. 302-41. * Roger D. Launius and Dennis R. Jenkins, "Is It Finally Time for Space Tourism?" Astropolitics: The International Journal of Space Politics and Policy 4 (Winter 2006): 253-80. * Ajey Lele, "An Asian Moon Race?" Space Policy 26 (2010) 222-28. * Eligar Sadeh, "Space Policy Challenges Facing the Barack Obama Administration," Space Policy 25 (May 2009): 109-16. November 16, 2011: Session 12????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Spaceflight and Memory Required Readings: * Roger D. Launius, "American Spaceflight History's Master Narrative and the Meaning of Memory," in Steven J. Dick, ed., Remembering the Space Age: Proceedings of the Fiftieth Anniversary Conference (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2008-4703, 2008), pp. 353-85.??? Choose One of the Following: * Slava Gerovitch, "Creating Memories: Myth, Identity, and Culture in the Russian Space Age," in Steven J. Dick, ed., Remembering the Space Age: Proceedings of the Fiftieth Anniversary Conference (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2008-4703, 2008), pp. 204-36. * Gretchen Heefner, "Missiles and Memory: Dismantling South Dakota's Cold War," Western Historical Quarterly 38 (Summer 2007): 181-203. * Monique Laney, "'Operation Paperclip' in Huntsville, Alabama," in Steven J. Dick, ed., Remembering the Space Age: Proceedings of the Fiftieth Anniversary Conference (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2008-4703, 2008), pp. 89-107. * Michael J. Neufeld, "Creating a Memory of the German Rocket Program for the Cold War," in Steven J. Dick, ed., Remembering the Space Age: Proceedings of the Fiftieth Anniversary Conference (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2008-4703, 2008), pp. 71-87. ???November 30, 2011: Session 13????????????????????? Material Culture and Controversy ???Required Readings: * Roger D. Launius, "Abandoned in Place: Interpreting the U.S. Material Culture of the Moon Race," The Public Historian 31 (August 2009): 9-38. ???Choose One of the Following: * Denis Cosgrove, "Contested Global Visions: One-World, Whole-Earth, and the Apollo Space Photographs," Annals of the Association of American Geographers 84 (June 1994): 270-94. * David A. DeVorkin, "Space Artifacts: Are They Historical Evidence?" in Steven J. Dick and Roger D. Launius, eds., Critical Issues in History of Spaceflight (Washington DC: NASA SP-2006-4702, 2006), pp. 574-600. * Alice Gorman and Beth O'Leary, "An Ideological Vacuum: The Cold War in Outer Space," in John Schofield and Wayne Cocroft, eds., A Fearsome Heritage: Diverse Legacies of the Cold War (Tucson, AZ: Left Coast Press, 2007), pp. 73-92. * Margaret A. Weitekamp, "Critical Theory as a Toolbox: Suggestions for Space History's Relationship to the History Subdisciplines," in Steven J. Dick and Roger D. Launius, eds., Critical Issues in History of Spaceflight (Washington DC: NASA SP-2006-4702, 2006), pp. 549-72. ???*** Second Review Essay Due at End of Reading Period, December 6 *** Add a comment to this post [http://s.wordpress.org/about/images/logo-grey/grey-m.png] WordPress.com | Thanks for flying with WordPress! Manage Subscriptions | Unsubscribe | Reach out to your own subscribers with WordPress.com. Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://subscribe.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cdomashnev at acm.org Fri Sep 2 08:44:12 2011 From: cdomashnev at acm.org (Constantine Domashnev) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 08:44:12 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] ICBM In-Reply-To: <54521314964656@web74.yandex.ru> Message-ID: Sergey (and all), I believe a very good way to [self]publish and distribute an e-book nowadays is via (as an example) Amazon.com. Converting a text into Amazon format is no rocket science. No hardware is needed to read Amazon e-books: Kindle in software form for MS Windows and Android (etc, etc) is available free of charge. Likely, there are similar options for B&N Nook, etc. Thanks. KD From m.launer at att.net Fri Sep 2 10:15:20 2011 From: m.launer at att.net (Michael Launer) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 07:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Grunt Humor Message-ID: <1314972920.26160.YahooMailRC@web180811.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I assume most readers of this site realize that Phobos-Grunt isn't about Marines or any other grunts, but rather that ????? (pronounced ) is one Russian word for, among other things,?dirt/earth/soil/rock/sediment. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjp961 at svol.net Fri Sep 2 12:02:22 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 12:02:22 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Question about Spiral testing...where Message-ID: <4e60fe1f.e60f340a.40dc.4080@mx.google.com> Question about Spiral testing. Was the Spiral tested at both Zhukovskiy and at Astrakhan? Or only at one of these places? If you have a URL link to the material, that would be helpful. Thanks in advance. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbcharle at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 11:55:37 2011 From: jbcharle at gmail.com (John) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 10:55:37 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called here "Shenlong" In-Reply-To: References: <4e5fd53f.41132a0a.502b.0087@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <33D67A4E-7F05-48A9-BD63-1FDD8FE79530@gmail.com> Phill I hope no one is surprised by the military connection mentioned for the Shenlong. After, the People's Liberation Army provide most of the infrastructure for the Chinese space program. Similarly, the military inputs into the US space shuttle design are quite well known. I am more interested in the Chinese attempts to find military applications for their human space efforts when the US and Russia seem to have learned that there aren't many. Dwayne Day has written about this. And what if the US and Russia have got it wrong...? JBC Sent from my iPhone. Please forgive typos. On Sep 2, 2011, at 1:21, "Phillip Clark" wrote: > I am sure that there are those who will howl in anguish about the possible Chinese shuttle being duel-role civil/military, totally ignoring the fact that this is how the US shuttle was intended to operate. > > I think that it is reasonable for the Chinese to be THINKING about reuseable launch vehicles, but I am sure that Shenzhou and its derivatives will remain the focus of China's piloted space programme for the next decade and a half at least. > > Phillip Clark > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Peter Pesavento > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 7:55 PM > Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported,called here "Shenlong" > > You can read about it here at the website of the International Assessment and Strategy Center?. > > > Article by Richard Fisher (contributor to a number of periodicals, including Defense Technology International, Aviation Week, and Foreign Policy) > > Title: ?China?s Space Plane Program? (Has illustrations and video captures) > > > Published July 27, 2011 > > http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.253/pub_detail.asp > > If anyone who has expertise would like to comment on what Fisher is saying, please hold forth > > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dstdba at post4.tele.dk Fri Sep 2 13:23:12 2011 From: dstdba at post4.tele.dk (Jens Kieffer-Olsen) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 19:23:12 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] demanned In-Reply-To: <001401cc68ea$57b11200$07133600$@tpg.com.au> References: <4E5E141D.2080901@telenet.be> <003801cc68d5$c36ff980$4a4fec80$@tele.dk> <001401cc68ea$57b11200$07133600$@tpg.com.au> Message-ID: <003301cc6995$00f5e3e0$02e1aba0$@tele.dk> I remember posters from the mid-90'es promoting the ISS as being 'human tended'. Therefore I'm willing to settle for 'de-tended'! Any takers? -- Jens Kieffer-Olsen Slagelse, Denmark -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: Brett & Sue [mailto:routierx at tpg.com.au] Sendt: 1. september 2011 23:02 Til: 'Jens Kieffer-Olsen'; fpspace at friends-partners.org Emne: Re: [FPSPACE] demanned De-crewed? -----Original Message----- From: fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org [mailto:fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org] On Behalf Of Jens Kieffer-Olsen Sent: Friday, 2 September 2011 4:34 AM To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] demanned Yes Zeger, 'demanned' is not just an issue of NASA slang, but of sexist NASA slang! Let's suggest instead that NASA use the word 'deoccupied'! An example of the use of similar slang may be found at Tane's blog http://www.myspace.com/tane_1/blog/241361559 from where I quote: "Why Hawaii needs the US to deoccupy its country". -- Jens Kieffer-Olsen Slagelse, Denmark -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: Zeger Nuyens [mailto:dokter.nuyens at telenet.be] Sendt: 31. august 2011 13:00 Til: fpspace at friends-partners.org Emne: [FPSPACE] demanned I must admit that when I saw "demanned" I was thinking of something completely different... Zeger Nuyens > How about the perfectly valid English word "unoccupied"? > > Phillip Clark _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace From phillipclark at btinternet.com Fri Sep 2 13:51:03 2011 From: phillipclark at btinternet.com (Phillip Clark) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 18:51:03 +0100 Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called here "Shenlong" In-Reply-To: <33D67A4E-7F05-48A9-BD63-1FDD8FE79530@gmail.com> References: <4e5fd53f.41132a0a.502b.0087@mx.google.com> <33D67A4E-7F05-48A9-BD63-1FDD8FE79530@gmail.com> Message-ID: I know that in my various writing and interviews covering the flights up to and including Shenzhou 5 I said that the only way that the piloted programme could be funded would be the "sell it" to the military as having an application which they could use. And the instrumentation carried at the front of the orbital modules were probably test-beds for some of the things which we are seeing (or rather not, because it's secret!) now within the Yaogan Weixing programme. China seems to be following its own path in space - manned and unmanned - and happily ignoring the predictions of pundits in the west. It makes life interesting! Also, what is a military space programme? All Soviet launches were run by the Strategic Rocket Forces so was all of the Soviet programme purely military? ("YES" shout the Rednecks in unison while drinking tea!) Similarly, Chinese launches are by the PLA so does that make all Chinese launches purely military? (Pause for a repeat shout.) My belief is that the Chinese programme is primarily military in nature but with dual role elements and occasionally purely civilian science projects. Phillip Clark ----- Original Message ----- From: John To: Phillip Clark Cc: Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:55 PM Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called here "Shenlong" Phill I hope no one is surprised by the military connection mentioned for the Shenlong. After, the People's Liberation Army provide most of the infrastructure for the Chinese space program. Similarly, the military inputs into the US space shuttle design are quite well known. I am more interested in the Chinese attempts to find military applications for their human space efforts when the US and Russia seem to have learned that there aren't many. Dwayne Day has written about this. And what if the US and Russia have got it wrong...? JBC Sent from my iPhone. Please forgive typos. On Sep 2, 2011, at 1:21, "Phillip Clark" wrote: I am sure that there are those who will howl in anguish about the possible Chinese shuttle being duel-role civil/military, totally ignoring the fact that this is how the US shuttle was intended to operate. I think that it is reasonable for the Chinese to be THINKING about reuseable launch vehicles, but I am sure that Shenzhou and its derivatives will remain the focus of China's piloted space programme for the next decade and a half at least. Phillip Clark ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pesavento To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 7:55 PM Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported,called here "Shenlong" You can read about it here at the website of the International Assessment and Strategy Center?. Article by Richard Fisher (contributor to a number of periodicals, including Defense Technology International, Aviation Week, and Foreign Policy) Title: ?China?s Space Plane Program? (Has illustrations and video captures) Published July 27, 2011 http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.253/pub_detail.asp If anyone who has expertise would like to comment on what Fisher is saying, please hold forth -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From agzak at optonline.net Fri Sep 2 14:11:07 2011 From: agzak at optonline.net (Anatoly Zak) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 14:11:07 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called here "Shenlong" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can not even describe the level of shouting,... no.. hysterical screaming the Soviet press was making about the fact that the Space Shuttle was nothing but militarization of space. That made it very difficult to believe that it was right! :) Anatoly Zak http://www.RussianSpaceWeb.com On 9/2/11 1:51 PM, "Phillip Clark" wrote: > I know that in my various writing and interviews covering the flights up to > and including Shenzhou 5 I said that the only way that the piloted programme > could be funded would be the "sell it" to the military as having an > application which they could use. And the instrumentation carried at the > front of the orbital modules were probably test-beds for some of the things > which we are seeing (or rather not, because it's secret!) now within the > Yaogan Weixing programme. > > China seems to be following its own path in space - manned and unmanned - and > happily ignoring the predictions of pundits in the west. It makes life > interesting! > > Also, what is a military space programme? All Soviet launches were run by > the Strategic Rocket Forces so was all of the Soviet programme purely > military? ("YES" shout the Rednecks in unison while drinking tea!) > Similarly, Chinese launches are by the PLA so does that make all Chinese > launches purely military? (Pause for a repeat shout.) My belief is that > the Chinese programme is primarily military in nature but with dual role > elements and occasionally purely civilian science projects. > > Phillip Clark > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: John >> >> To: Phillip Clark >> >> Cc: "> >> >> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:55 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called >> here "Shenlong" >> >> >> >> Phill >> >> >> >> I hope no one is surprised by the military connection mentioned for the >> Shenlong. After, the People's Liberation Army provide most of the >> infrastructure for the Chinese space program. >> >> >> >> Similarly, the military inputs into the US space shuttle design are quite >> well known. >> >> >> >> I am more interested in the Chinese attempts to find military applications >> for their human space efforts when the US and Russia seem to have learned >> that there aren't many. Dwayne Day has written about this. >> >> >> >> And what if the US and Russia have got it wrong...? >> >> JBC >> Sent from my iPhone. >> Please forgive typos. >> >> >> On Sep 2, 2011, at 1:21, "Phillip Clark" >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> I am sure that there are those who will howl in anguish about the possible >>> Chinese shuttle being duel-role civil/military, totally ignoring the fact >>> that this is how the US shuttle was intended to operate. >>> >>> >>> >>> I think that it is reasonable for the Chinese to be THINKING about >>> reuseable launch vehicles, but I am sure that Shenzhou and its derivatives >>> will remain the focus of China's piloted space programme for the next >>> decade and a half at least. >>> >>> >>> >>> Phillip Clark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >>>> From: Peter Pesavento >>>> >>>> To: fpspace at friends-partners.org >>>> >>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 7:55 PM >>>> >>>> Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported,called here >>>> "Shenlong" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> You can read about it here at the website of the International Assessment >>>> and Strategy Center?. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Article by Richard Fisher (contributor to a number of periodicals, >>>> including Defense Technology International, Aviation Week, and Foreign >>>> Policy) >>>> >>>> >>>> Title: ?China?s Space Plane Program? (Has illustrations and video >>>> captures) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Published July 27, 2011 >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.253/pub_detail.asp >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If anyone who has expertise would like to comment on what Fisher is >>>> saying, please hold forth >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> FPSPACE mailing list >>>> FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >>>> http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace >>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> FPSPACE mailing list >>>>> FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >>>>> http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> FPSPACE mailing list >>>> FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >>>> http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jameseoberg at comcast.net Fri Sep 2 14:11:15 2011 From: jameseoberg at comcast.net (James E Oberg) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 13:11:15 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] Cosmonaut Valeriy Rozhdestvenskiy has died, on Aug 31, age 73. Message-ID: I can't find any earlier announcements of this. Valeriy Rozhdestvenskiy has died, on Aug 31, age 73. Trained as military-salyut flight engineer, but rendezvous failed and he and Zudov made only manned splashdown in Soviet/russian space history, in Lake Tengiz, October 16, 1976. Soyuz-23. Rumors were that at least one of the recovery team drowned during the night-long rescue, during which the crew was given up for dead as well. artist concept of nighttime splashdown: http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/s/soyuz23.jpg http://www.spacefacts.de/bios/cosmonauts/english/rozhdestvensky_valeri.htm http://www.astronautix.com/flights/soyuz23.htm ???????? ??????? ????????? ? ??????????? ???????? ?????????????? 02 ???????? 2011, 21:15 http://www.polit.ru/news/2011/09/02/space_vr/ ??????? ? ???????? ??????? ?????? ???????? ????? ?????????? ?????, ???????-?????????? ????, ?????????? ??????? ?????? ???????????????, ??????? ????????? 31 ??????? 2011 ???? ?? 73-? ???? ?????. ????? ?????????? ? ?????? ???????, ? ??? ??????????? ?????? ??? ??????, ?????? ? ?????????, ???????? ?????-?????? ?????? ?????????? ??????????? ????? ?.?. ????????. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Fri Sep 2 15:16:02 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 15:16:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Cosmonaut Valeriy Rozhdestvenskiy has died, on Aug 31, age 73. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CE37BBE34F7706-1990-2415C@webmail-m154.sysops.aol.com> This is sad news. He was one of a small handful of cosmonauts who ever got to see an Almaz station in-orbit. My condolences to all who met, and knew him. He will be missed. David L. Rickman -----Original Message----- From: James E Oberg To: fpspace Cc: James E Oberg Sent: Fri, Sep 2, 2011 10:12 am Subject: [FPSPACE] Cosmonaut Valeriy Rozhdestvenskiy has died, on Aug 31, age 73. I can't find any earlier announcements of this. Valeriy Rozhdestvenskiy has died, on Aug 31, age 73. Trained as military-salyut flight engineer, but rendezvous failed and he and Zudov made only manned splashdown in Soviet/russian space history, in Lake Tengiz, October 16, 1976. Soyuz-23. Rumors were that at least one of the recovery team drowned during the night-long rescue, during which the crew was given up for dead as well. artist concept of nighttime splashdown: http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/s/soyuz23.jpg http://www.spacefacts.de/bios/cosmonauts/english/rozhdestvensky_valeri.htm http://www.astronautix.com/flights/soyuz23.htm ???????? ??????? ????????? ? ??????????? ???????? ?????????????? 02 ???????? 2011, 21:15 http://www.polit.ru/news/2011/09/02/space_vr/ ??????? ? ???????? ??????? ?????? ???????? ????? ?????????? ?????, ???????-?????????? ????, ?????????? ??????? ?????? ???????????????, ??????? ????????? 31 ??????? 2011 ???? ?? 73-? ???? ?????. ????? ?????????? ? ?????? ???????, ? ??? ??????????? ?????? ??? ??????, ?????? ? ?????????, ???????? ?????-?????? ?????? ?????????? ??????????? ????? ?.?. ????????. _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Fri Sep 2 17:42:15 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 17:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] NPO Mashinostroyenia Mock-Ups Message-ID: <8CE37D051074D67-1990-26B67@webmail-m154.sysops.aol.com> Hello FPSpacers, In the current edition of NPO Mashinostroyenias' online newsletter, Tribune, there is an interesting article about a subject which I had been curious about for sometime. Who builds these huge mock-ups of space stations? The answer and a tribute to the Chief Builder can be found here: http://www.npomash.ru/press/ru/tribuna300811.htm?l=0 Best Regards, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geertsassen at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 21:28:09 2011 From: geertsassen at gmail.com (Geert Sassen) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 03:28:09 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Question about Spiral testing...where In-Reply-To: <4e60fe1f.e60f340a.40dc.4080@mx.google.com> References: <4e60fe1f.e60f340a.40dc.4080@mx.google.com> Message-ID: There is a YouTube video of an actual testflight of Spiral, but I don't remember seeing or hearing a clear indication of which base it was on. Can't access my archive from here (at work) but just search for Spiral or one of its designations on YouTube and you'll find it. Regards, Geert. On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Peter Pesavento wrote: > Question about Spiral testing. > > > > Was the Spiral tested at both Zhukovskiy and at Astrakhan?? Or only at one > of these places?? If you have a URL link to the material, that would be > helpful. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > -- Geert Sassen http://www.facebook.com/geert.sassen From ljk4 at msn.com Sat Sep 3 00:04:48 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 00:04:48 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called here "Shenlong" In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: They also seem to have an interest in NEOs. They would make for good sources of easy-access material for building an interplanetary culture. They who can manipulate planetoids in space can also get their point across geopolitically by using a space rock as a threat. Perhaps this is the real reason NASA has been instructed to land humans on planetoids: To start securing the Sol system from the Chinese. Larry Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 14:11:07 -0400 From: agzak at optonline.net To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called here "Shenlong" Re: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called here "Shenlong" I can not even describe the level of shouting,... no.. hysterical screaming the Soviet press was making about the fact that the Space Shuttle was nothing but militarization of space. That made it very difficult to believe that it was right! :) Anatoly Zak http://www.RussianSpaceWeb.com On 9/2/11 1:51 PM, "Phillip Clark" wrote: I know that in my various writing and interviews covering the flights up to and including Shenzhou 5 I said that the only way that the piloted programme could be funded would be the "sell it" to the military as having an application which they could use. And the instrumentation carried at the front of the orbital modules were probably test-beds for some of the things which we are seeing (or rather not, because it's secret!) now within the Yaogan Weixing programme. China seems to be following its own path in space - manned and unmanned - and happily ignoring the predictions of pundits in the west. It makes life interesting! Also, what is a military space programme? All Soviet launches were run by the Strategic Rocket Forces so was all of the Soviet programme purely military? ("YES" shout the Rednecks in unison while drinking tea!) Similarly, Chinese launches are by the PLA so does that make all Chinese launches purely military? (Pause for a repeat shout.) My belief is that the Chinese programme is primarily military in nature but with dual role elements and occasionally purely civilian science projects. Phillip Clark ----- Original Message ----- From: John To: Phillip Clark Cc: "> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:55 PM Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called here "Shenlong" Phill I hope no one is surprised by the military connection mentioned for the Shenlong. After, the People's Liberation Army provide most of the infrastructure for the Chinese space program. Similarly, the military inputs into the US space shuttle design are quite well known. I am more interested in the Chinese attempts to find military applications for their human space efforts when the US and Russia seem to have learned that there aren't many. Dwayne Day has written about this. And what if the US and Russia have got it wrong...? JBC Sent from my iPhone. Please forgive typos. On Sep 2, 2011, at 1:21, "Phillip Clark" wrote: I am sure that there are those who will howl in anguish about the possible Chinese shuttle being duel-role civil/military, totally ignoring the fact that this is how the US shuttle was intended to operate. I think that it is reasonable for the Chinese to be THINKING about reuseable launch vehicles, but I am sure that Shenzhou and its derivatives will remain the focus of China's piloted space programme for the next decade and a half at least. Phillip Clark ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pesavento To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 7:55 PM Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported,called here "Shenlong" You can read about it here at the website of the International Assessment and Strategy Center?. Article by Richard Fisher (contributor to a number of periodicals, including Defense Technology International, Aviation Week, and Foreign Policy) Title: ?China?s Space Plane Program? (Has illustrations and video captures) Published July 27, 2011 http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.253/pub_detail.asp If anyone who has expertise would like to comment on what Fisher is saying, please hold forth _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dstdba at post4.tele.dk Sat Sep 3 00:23:36 2011 From: dstdba at post4.tele.dk (Jens Kieffer-Olsen) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 06:23:36 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Grunt Humor In-Reply-To: <1314972920.26160.YahooMailRC@web180811.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1314972920.26160.YahooMailRC@web180811.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002b01cc69f1$42826b60$c7874220$@tele.dk> So no connection at all to Death Metal either, eg. JB?s The Grunt? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-4VxEtWyRo -- Jens Kieffer-Olsen Slagelse, Denmark Fra: Michael Launer [mailto:m.launer at att.net] Sendt: 2. september 2011 16:15 Til: fpspace at www.friends-partners.org Emne: [FPSPACE] Grunt Humor I assume most readers of this site realize that Phobos-Grunt isn't about Marines or any other grunts, but rather that ????? (pronounced ) is one Russian word for, among other things, dirt/earth/soil/rock/sediment. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kgottschalk at uwc.ac.za Sat Sep 3 06:35:07 2011 From: kgottschalk at uwc.ac.za (Keith Gottschalk) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2011 12:35:07 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] motivation for Chinese space plane test & rest of programme In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4E621EFB020000A600011353@uwc.ac.za> Here's a political scientist's estimate on China's space programme. 1) Chinese space lobbyists will try to justify as much as possible on military grounds, to maximize their budget. (good luck to them :) 2) But an ever-increasing proportion of Chinese space programmes will actually be for prestige, & economics, in their consequences. 3) If military was really their overwhelming motive, then their space budget would be confined to, & poured into more 3.1 ICBMs & MIRV upgrades; then SLBMs (which I think they have not yet started); then 3.2 spysats across the whole electromagnetic spectrum, which I'm sure they have; then 3.3 a TDRS system (which they have not yet even started); 3.4 then their own mil comsats; (have they even started these?) 3.5 then IT upgrades to prevent the USG "phising" their spysats & comsats; & last 3.6 their own indigenous GPS systems. Some current US & other proposals for hypersonic winged vehicles launching quick-response cruise or other missiles seem to be intended to have the same effect as a FOB system, but without violating space treaties or being a FOBs sitting duck in orbit. But again, there's no benefits, only costs, to put human crews on such hypersonic spaceplanes. As Dwayne Day pointed out in our forum years ago (could it already be a decade ago?) human spaceflight results in a vast diverting of Chinese space budget away from milspend. Space stations are sitting ducks for every ASAT. Life support systems on a space anything divert a tonne of payload away from useful machines. Here's a query. When will the first Chinese robot be flown up to their future space station? They must have somewhere hidden lots of UAVs, AUVs, UGMs, if I get these cyber acronyms correct from memory. yours, Keith. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- All Email originating from UWC is covered by disclaimer http://www.uwc.ac.za/emaildisclaimer From m.launer at att.net Sat Sep 3 08:40:21 2011 From: m.launer at att.net (Michael Launer) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 05:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Cosmonaut Valeriy Rozhdestvenskiy has died, on Aug 31, age 73 Message-ID: <1315053621.3748.YahooMailRC@web180809.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Rozhdestvenskiy was 72 - not 73 - when he died. The Russian says "in his 73rd year" and gives his DOB as 13 February 1939. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Sat Sep 3 14:21:37 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 14:21:37 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] FW: Latest from Cosmic Log In-Reply-To: <10106897.102621315060075557.JavaMail.www-apps@cpnewsvineapp2> References: <10106897.102621315060075557.JavaMail.www-apps@cpnewsvineapp2> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 07:27:55 -0700 From: admin at adm.newsvine.com To: ljk4 at msn.com Subject: Latest from Cosmic Log Cosmic LogAmazon.com's Jeff Bezos reports crash of Blue Origin rocket ship - Alan Boyle Blue Origin's experimental rocket ship crashed last week when a high-altitude flight test went awry, says Amazon.com billionaire Jeff Bezos, who founded the secretive rocket venture 11 years ago. The Aug. If you would like to change your e-mail communication preferences, you may modify your settings here or unsubscribe from all e-mails here. Msnbc.com / Newsvine, One Microsoft Way, Redmond, WA 98052 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bhen at telenet.be Sat Sep 3 18:13:50 2011 From: bhen at telenet.be (Bart Hendrickx) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 00:13:50 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Question about Spiral testing...where In-Reply-To: <4e60fe1f.e60f340a.40dc.4080@mx.google.com> References: <4e60fe1f.e60f340a.40dc.4080@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000001cc6a86$c2dda7d0$4898f770$@be> Peter Pesavento wrote : Question about Spiral testing. Was the Spiral tested at both Zhukovskiy and at Astrakhan? Or only at one of these places? If you have a URL link to the material, that would be helpful. All the test flights took place from the Air Force's GNIKI base near Akhtubinsk, some 300 km north of Astrakhan. The Spiral test bed (105.11) was delivered to GNIKI in May 1975 and performed a series of taxi runs and short autonomous test flights between November 1975 and October 1976. It was returned to Moscow (flying under the belly of a Tu-95KM) in February 1977 to be shown to Central Committee Secretary Yakov Ryabov, but was then flown back to GNIKI in May 1977 for the second round of test flights, which involved captive-carry flights with the Tu-95KM and drop tests from the same aircraft. The final test flight took place in September 1978 and 105.11 was definitively returned to Moscow the following month. The most detailed description of the Spiral programme is given in the book "Kosmicheskie kryl'ya" by Vadim Lukashevich and Igor Afanasyev, but you can also find plenty of material on the programme on Lukashevich's website at http://www.buran.ru/htm/spiral.htm. Bart Hendrickx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Sun Sep 4 00:53:50 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 00:53:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Need Lunniy Korabl Reference Photos Message-ID: <8CE38D5C58F1E1F-18EC-442D4@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> Hello FPSpacers, I am in need of reference photographs of the 11F94 Lunniy Korabl at Lab 601 at MAI, Lab 33 at the A. F. Mozhayskogo Academy, and the Demonstration Hall of MGTU in Orevo. I am aware of the amazing images on the Novosti Kosmonavtiki online Galleries, but there are views that I am still lacking. In particular, I am in need of images of the LPU "clam-shell" Deflection Shields designed to protect the Block E Engines. Specifically, I am looking for photos of the bottoms of all three, and the locking mechanisms on the ends of these assemblies on the LKs at Mozhayskogo and MGTU Orevo. These would be used as reference material for details in a 1:5 scale display model, and would not be published, transmitted, or shared with any third party. Thanks in advance! Best Regards, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jameseoberg at comcast.net Sun Sep 4 08:45:26 2011 From: jameseoberg at comcast.net (James E Oberg) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 07:45:26 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] =?iso-8859-1?q?Visit_Russia=27s_Plesetsk_Space_Center?= Message-ID: <5FB221AD9CB64AE4B7B4AEFB615D7519@ownerfbf08f40c> Visit Russia's Plesetsk Space Center http://www.barentsobserver.com/visit-russias-plesetsk-space-center.4953847.html Plesetsk Space Center in Arkhangelsk Oblast is Russia's only and the world's northernmost space center. It is listed as one of the Russian Armed Forces' top secret installations. At the space center the Angara launch facility is currently under construction. It is designed to put heavy payloads into orbit and will reduce Moscow's dependence on Kazakhstan's Baikonur, the main launch facility for the current generation of Russian rockets. Watch video from Plesetsk Space Center on RIA Novosti. http://en.rian.ru/video/20110830/166305761.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drwoods at stny.rr.com Sun Sep 4 12:12:52 2011 From: drwoods at stny.rr.com (David R. Woods) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 12:12:52 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Editor of Spaceflight Message-ID: <4E63A384.8080000@stny.rr.com> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Editor of Spaceflight Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 09:30:58 +0100 From: Reply-To: Organization: BIS To: BIS Clive Simpson, who has acted as Editor for Spaceflight for the past decade, has announced his intention of stepping down from the post at the end of 2011. The Society is therefore looking for a new editor. Anyone interested should in the first interest contact the Executive Secretary for details, and should submit an application with a description of how they see Spaceflight developing by noon on Monday 19 September 2011. Regards Suszann Parry Executive Secretary The British Interplanetary Society 27/29 South Lambeth Road LondonSW8 1SZ Tel: 0207 735 3160 Fax: 0207 587 5118 www.bis-spaceflight.com From davidlrickman at aol.com Sun Sep 4 19:00:51 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 19:00:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Anniversary of a Soviet lunar lander helicopter simulator test In-Reply-To: <8CE396D6B43E805-2230-2E164@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> References: <4BCA0807.70208@stny.rr.com> <8CE396D6B43E805-2230-2E164@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE396D9FA4B567-2230-2E1BA@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> Hi FPSpacers, I know it's been a year and a half since we had this discussion, but I came across a photo that I hadn't seen before and thought I'd share (just in case others hadn't seen it). It's the Planeta PRL DA-019 and DA-018 attached to a Mi-6 Helicopter for Lunar Landing Simulation Test: http://4image.uz/images/5913.jpg Not exactly the same as the one actually used on the Lunniy Korabl, but almost there. Best Regards, David L. Rickman -----Original Message----- From: David R. Woods To: fpspace Sent: Sat, Apr 17, 2010 5:15 pm Subject: [FPSPACE] Anniversary of a Soviet lunar lander helicopter simulator test Folks, An interesting item appeared on the Anniversaries section of the Roscosmos web page at http://www.roscosmos.ru. Today was marked as the anniversary of the SU (Soviet Union) 17 April 1970 flight test of a helicopter simulator of a spacecraft used to land on the lunar surface. There were no further details. It is generally assumed that once the Apollo 11 mission had been conducted, that the Soviet lunar cosmonaut team was disbanded to concentrate instead on space station programs. Therefore there should have been no further lander training tests after that. I have done a little searching through my records and I can not find any reference to this event or program. Does anyone have any further details? Dave ????????? ??????????? ??? What space anniversaries 17 ?????? 1970 | ?????????? ?????? ????????? ?? ??????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?? ??????????? ???? ?? ??????????? ?????????. 17 April 1970 | The flight tests of the SU lunar spacecraft to land on the lunar surface for the helicopter simulator. 17 April 1970 | Took place the flight tests SU of lunar ship for the landing on the surface of the Moon on the helicopter imitator _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjp961 at svol.net Mon Sep 5 16:13:09 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 16:13:09 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Space Junk at the tipping point Message-ID: <4e652d71.c4d7e00a.74fc.6d3b@mx.google.com> >From BBC News in London http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14757926 Space junk at tipping point, says report Scientists in the US have warned Nasa that the amount of so-called space junk orbiting Earth is at tipping point. A report by the National Research Council says the debris could cause fatal leaks in spaceships or destroy valuable satellites. It calls for international regulations to limit the junk and more research into the possible use of launching large magnetic nets or giant umbrellas. The debris includes clouds of minuscule fragments, old boosters and satellites. Some computer models show the amount of orbital rubbish "has reached a tipping point, with enough currently in orbit to continually collide and create even more debris, raising the risk of spacecraft failures," the research council said in a statement on Thursday. Situation 'critical' Hopes of limiting the amount of space junk in orbit suffered two major setbacks in recent years. In 2007, China conducted an anti-satellite weapon test which destroyed a decommissioned weather satellite, smashing the object into 150,000 pieces larger than 1cm. Two years later, two satellites - one defunct and one active - crashed in orbit, creating even more debris. "Those two single events doubled the amount of fragments in Earth orbit and completely wiped out what we had done in the last 25 years," said Donald Kessler, who led the research. There are 22,000 pieces of debris large enough to track from the ground, but smaller objects could still cause serious damage. The International Space Station must occasionally dodge some of the junk, which flies around the Earth at speeds of up to 17,500 mph (28,164 km/h). In June, some debris narrowly missed the space station, forcing its six crew to go to their escape capsules and prepare for an emergency evacuation back to Earth. The situation is critical, said Mr Kessler, a retired Nasa scientist, because colliding debris creates even more of the junk. "We've lost control of the environment," he said. The report makes no recommendations about how to clean up the field of debris. But it refers to an earlier study for the Pentagon's science think-tank, the Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency (Darpa). The Darpa report, dubbed "Catcher's Mitt", suggested a range of technologies, including harpoons, nets and an umbrella-shaped device that would sweep up the debris. The aim would be to push the debris further towards the earth where it would burn up, or into a higher but safer orbit. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Tue Sep 6 01:41:29 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 01:41:29 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] FW: [New post] Sail on Voyager In-Reply-To: <088e4ce3ffcdd4d093bb82f030e99c4d@wordpress.com> References: <088e4ce3ffcdd4d093bb82f030e99c4d@wordpress.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 14:17:19 +0000 To: ljk4 at msn.com From: no-reply at wordpress.com Subject: [New post] Sail on Voyager WordPress.com Sail on Voyager launiusr | September 5, 2011 at 2:17 pm | Tags: Grand Tour, History, NASA, Neptune, PJupiter, Saturn, space science, U.S. Civil Space, Uranus, Voyager | Categories: History, Science, Space | URL: http://wp.me/pwYu1-Ce The Voyager spacecraft. Today in 1977 NASA launched Voyager 1, the second mission of this series launched to explore the outer planets in what came to be called the "Grand Tour." It seems appropriate to remember this important mission at this time. Even though the ?four-?planet mission was known to be possible, it had been estimated as too expensive to build a spacecraft that could go the distance, carry the instruments needed, and last long enough to accomplish such an extended mission. Thus, the two Voyager spacecraft ?were funded to conduct intensive flyby studies only of Jupiter and Saturn, in effect repeating on a more elaborate scale the flights of Pioneers 10 and 11 that had begun earlier in the 1970s. Nonetheless, the engineers designed as much longevity into the two Voyagers as the $865 million bud?get would allow. NASA launched them from the Kennedy Space Center, Florida: Voyager 2 lifted off on August 20, 1977, and Voyager 1 entered space on a faster, shorter trajectory on September 5, 1977. As the mission progressed, having successfully accomplished all its objectives at Jupiter and Saturn in December 1980, additional flybys of the two outermost giant planets, Uranus and Neptune, proved ?possible?and ?irresistible?to mission scientists. Accordingly, as the two spacecraft flew across the solar system, ?remote-?control reprogramming was used to redirect the Voyagers for the greater mission. Eventually Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 explored all the giant outer planets, 48 of their moons, and the unique systems of rings and magnetic fields those planets possess. The two spacecraft returned information to Earth that revo?lu?tionized solar system science, helping resolve some key questions while raising intriguing new ones about the origin and evo?lu?tion of the planets. The two Voyagers took well over 100,000 images of the outer planets, rings, and satellites, as well as millions of magnetic, chemical spectra, and radiation mea?sure?ments. ?They discovered rings around Jupiter, volcanoes on Io, shepherding satellites in Saturn?s rings, new moons around Uranus and Neptune, and geysers on Triton. The last imaging sequence was Voyager 1?s portrait of most of the solar system, showing Earth and six other planets as sparks in a dark sky lit by a single bright star, the Sun. It was a stunning mission, one that has had a profound influence on our knowledge of the solar system. The "family portrait" of the Solar System taken by Voyager 1. This picture consists of 60 frames taken through the Wide Angle and Narrow Angle cameras using the Methane, Violet, Blue, Green, and Clear Filters. Add a comment to this post WordPress.com | Thanks for flying with WordPress! Manage Subscriptions | Unsubscribe | Publish text, photos, music, and videos by email using our Post by Email feature. Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://subscribe.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjp961 at svol.net Tue Sep 6 17:42:35 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 17:42:35 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] New Views of Apollo landings sites released by NASA today...via close-look Lunar Recon Orbiter Message-ID: <4e6693ea.d3dce00a.53da.29df@mx.google.com> Read the press release (and gawk at the photos) here. http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/news/apollo-sites.html The orbiter apparently has been put into a much lower orbit, thus enhancing the resolution. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drwoods at stny.rr.com Tue Sep 6 22:34:25 2011 From: drwoods at stny.rr.com (David R. Woods) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 22:34:25 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Astronaut Dan Bursch to speak in Vestal, NY Message-ID: <4E66D831.6000302@stny.rr.com> Dan Bursch http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/bursch.html is one of our four local "Route-17 Astronauts" and will be back in town for a day of presentations. Dan flew on STS-51, STS-68, STS-77 and up on STS-108 where he spent 6 1/2 months on the ISS as part of Expedition-4 and then returned on STS-111. Details of his activities can be found at: Captain Dan Bursch USN (ret.) Homecoming Celebration Saturday September 24, 2011 Kopernik Observatory and Science Center welcomes retired astronaut Daniel Bursch for a celebration of his career in spaceflight. A graduate of Vestal High School, Capt. Bursch flew on four space shuttle missions and currently holds the American spaceflight endurance record of 196 days. Capt. Bursch has been called ?one of the strongest public affairs assets in (NASA?s) arsenal?. An inspirational speaker who has captivated audiences of all ages, Dan leaves his listeners inspired to reach for the stars, no matter where that star may be. http://www.kopernik.org/ http://www.kopernik.org/pdf/2011/Dan-Bursch-Schedule-of-Events.pdf From davidlrickman at aol.com Wed Sep 7 01:36:17 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 01:36:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Antenna Question: Lonokhod vs. Lunniy Korabl Message-ID: <8CE3B373339FE44-2034-98DD4@webmail-d128.sysops.aol.com> FPSpacers, One more question on the Lunniy Korabl: The antenna on two of the remaining Lunniy Korabl look similar to that used on some soviet satellites (such as Lunokhod, Venera, Mars). Are the antennae on the Lunniy Korabl the real design, or are they simplifications of the same type of antenna displayed on these other satellites?? Here's a photo for comparison: http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6084/6123054828_551405688e_b.jpg Does anybody know of any other examples of the type of antenna displayed on the LK? Curiously, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Wed Sep 7 02:02:19 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 02:02:19 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] FW: [JAXA:0309] The "Scinence"special edition on "HAYABUSA" research reports was published In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 14:19:57 +0900 > From: jaxapr at jaxa.jp > Subject: [JAXA:0309] The "Scinence"special edition on "HAYABUSA" research reports was published > To: ljk4 at msn.com > > August 26, 2011 (JST) > > The "Scinence"special edition on "HAYABUSA" > research reports was published > > The Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) has been engaged in collecting > and categorizing particles in the sampler container (*1), which was brought > back by the instrumental module of the asteroid exploration spacecraft > "HAYABUSA" from asteroid "Itokawa." > > As part of this effort, JAXA has been conducting the initial analysis (*2) of > particles identified as rocky using scanning electron microscope (SEM) > observations, which were collected from sample catcher compartment "A." > > As a part of achievements of the initial analysis, six HAYABUSA research > reports were published in the "Science Magazine" dated August 26, 2011. In > addition, the cover of this magazine features these achievements. > > This is also epoch-making news since the special issues that the asteroid > explorer "HAYABUSA's" neighborhood observation on asteroid "Itokawa" in June > 2006, the solar observation satellite "HINODE" in December 2007 and "KAGUYA" in > February 2009. > The titles of the research reports in Science magazine are as follows: > 1) Itokawa dust particles: A direct link between S-type asteroids and ordinary > chondrites > 2) Oxygen Isotopic Compositions of Asteroidal Materials Returned from Itokawa > by the Hayabusa Mission > 3) Neutron Activation Analysis of a Particle Returned from Asteroid Itokawa > 4) Three-dimensional structure of Hayabusa sample: Origin and evolution of > Itokawa regolith > 5) Incipient space weathering observed on the surface of Itokawa dust > 6) Irradiation history of Itokawa regolith material deduced from noble gases in > the Hayabusa samples > > > *1 The HAYABUSA sampler container consists of 2 compartments that are called > Sample Catcher A and B. > > *2 "Initial analysis" means the analysis of typical particles to obtain > information necessary for categorizing > (identification, classification and numbering) as a part of curation > activity (*3). > > *3 "Curation activity" means the retrieval of particles, preservation, > categorizing and allocation and their necessary analysis. > > Science Magazine 26 August 2011 : Cover > http://www.jaxa.jp/press/2011/08/20110826_hayabusa_e.html#img > > A small rocky particle, 150 microns in size, brought buck from asteroid > "Itokawa" by the asteroid exploration spacecraft "HAYABUSA." > > Mission website: > Science: http://www.sciencemag.org/magazine.dtl > Asteroid Explorer "HAYABUSA" (MUSES-C): > http://www.jaxa.jp/projects/sat/muses_c/index_e.html > Tohoku University: http://www.tohoku.ac.jp/english/ > KEK / Tohoku University: http://www.kek.jp/intra-e/press/2011/082613/ > Hokkaido University: http://www.hokudai.ac.jp/en/ > Tokyo Metropolitan University: http://www.tmu.ac.jp/english/index.html > Osaka University: http://www.osaka-u.ac.jp/en/index.html > The University of Tokyo: http://www.u-tokyo.ac.jp/index_e.html > > > URL: > http://www.jaxa.jp/press/2011/08/20110826_hayabusa_e.html > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Publisher : > Public Affairs Department > Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) > Marunouchi Kitaguchi Building, > 1-6-5, Marunouchi, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo 100-8260 Japan > TEL:+81-3-6266-6400 > > JAXA WEB SITE : > http://www.jaxa.jp/index_e.html > > About This Mail Service : > To change registered e-mail address, or to cancel this service, > please access to > http://www.jaxa.jp/pr/mail/index_e.html > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nikolai39 at hotmail.fr Wed Sep 7 09:09:19 2011 From: nikolai39 at hotmail.fr (Nicolas PILLET) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 15:09:19 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Book of ISS Reshetnev Message-ID: To be published very soon : http://www.iss-reshetnev.ru/book/index.php -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Wed Sep 7 14:24:07 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 14:24:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Antenna Question: Lonokhod vs. Lunniy Korabl Message-ID: <8CE3BA276B1E73C-21AC-6ACA0@webmail-m056.sysops.aol.com> Hello FPSpacers! My question has been answered, and for those of you whoappreciate learning about the Lunniy Korabl there is a couple of fantasticdiscussions on the Novosti Kosmonavtiki Forum Both discussions are under the "???????????? - ?? ???????, ?????????? ????????????" heading , and the topics are: ??????? ? ?????? ???????? 11?94 ...??? ??????????? ?????? ???????? 11?94??? There is new information on almost a daily basis, and one of the Editors at NK is adding details from photos of the LKn previously posted in their Galleries (and a few new photos)! It's GREAT stuff!!! Regards, David L. Rickman -----Original Message----- From: davidlrickman To: fpspace Sent: Tue, Sep 6, 2011 9:36 pm Subject: [FPSPACE] Antenna Question: Lonokhod vs. Lunniy Korabl FPSpacers, One more question on the Lunniy Korabl: The antenna on two of the remaining Lunniy Korabl look similar to that used on some soviet satellites (such as Lunokhod, Venera, Mars). Are the antennae on the Lunniy Korabl the real design, or are they simplifications of the same type of antenna displayed on these other satellites?? Here's a photo for comparison: http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6084/6123054828_551405688e_b.jpg Does anybody know of any other examples of the type of antenna displayed on the LK? Curiously, David L. Rickman _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From japio at dds.nl Fri Sep 9 03:43:14 2011 From: japio at dds.nl (Jakob Terweij) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 09:43:14 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Progress launch failure (1st in history) In-Reply-To: References: <4E551328.3010901@panix.com> Message-ID: <20110909094314.9ll3niirq5mo4k88@webmail.dds.nl> Friends, overhere in Russia everybody is in shock about this aircraft accident near Jaroslav.which killed the whole icehokky team of Jaroslav. But if you look at the facts it is not only rockets that fall from the sky, not long ago the river boat neer Kazan, not long ago this helicopter I think it was MI 26 this weekend a MIG 31 and now the Jak 42. The general opinion is that it is a lack of qualified technicians and every body wants to get rich as soon as possible, so no repair , faulty parts (second hand), to many people on the boat (sell tickets is more important than people lives.) Medwedev said yesterday that if the problems with the aircraft agencies(now 130 )not will be solved we have to buy good equipment and airplanes abroad. Still in the metro you can buy any diploma or other paper necessary. Young people are not going to work in Factories like Energya and earn 500 dollars a month, they are working abroad or in commercial firms. Now in Energya the old people are leaving and there is no one to take their place.This is showing every where in Russia. Jakob Quoting James E Oberg : > From Altay Region -- reports of an explosion... > > "Explosion was of such force that for 100 kilometers nearly all glass > shattered from the windows. I live here 40 years, we became accustomed to > the fact that fall the steps (carrier rockets), but there was no such strong > explosion, not once", said Borisov. > > > > According to him, there is no information about the victims as yet "and > there couldn't be", since it's already night and this locality is almost > inaccessible. The data about that, are whether there are victims, there won't > be any earlier than 11.00 AM local time (8.00 msk), since to reach them will > be either on helicopters or on the tankettes, he noted. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Jones" > To: "FPSpace" > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:05 AM > Subject: [FPSPACE] Progress launch failure (1st in history) > > >> For the first time ever, a Progress launch failed today. >> Communications was lost during the 3rd stage burn and the spacecraft >> failed to reach orbit. >> >> Given that this is the same launcher used to launch crews to ISS, and >> there's no current alternative, any interruption in future flights is >> very bad news for ISS. >> _______________________________________________ >> FPSPACE mailing list >> FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >> http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace >> > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace Jakob Terweij j van Lennepstraat 249C 1053 JD Amsterdam +31651549606 From jameseoberg at comcast.net Fri Sep 9 09:36:57 2011 From: jameseoberg at comcast.net (James E Oberg) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 08:36:57 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] Progress launch failure (1st in history) References: <4E551328.3010901@panix.com> <20110909094314.9ll3niirq5mo4k88@webmail.dds.nl> Message-ID: Thanks, Jacob, and we grieve with the victims and their loved ones. Only through a proper diagnosis and a sensible remedy will these disasters be brought under control. It may take time. What will happen next, all across the hi-tech sprectrum, is cause for justifiable alarm, in my humble opinion. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jakob Terweij" To: Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 2:43 AM Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Progress launch failure (1st in history) > > Friends, > overhere in Russia everybody is in shock about this aircraft accident > near Jaroslav.which killed the whole icehokky team of Jaroslav. > But if you look at the facts it is not only rockets that fall from the > sky, not long ago the river boat neer Kazan, not long ago this helicopter > I think it was MI 26 this weekend a MIG 31 and now the Jak 42. > The general opinion is that it is a lack of qualified technicians and > every body wants to get rich as soon as possible, so no repair , faulty > parts (second hand), to many people on the boat (sell tickets is more > important than people lives.) > Medwedev said yesterday that if the problems with the aircraft > agencies(now 130 )not will be solved we have to buy good equipment and > airplanes abroad. > Still in the metro you can buy any diploma or other paper necessary. > Young people are not going to work in Factories like Energya and earn 500 > dollars a month, they are working abroad or in commercial firms. > Now in Energya the old people are leaving and there is no one to take > their place.This is showing every where in Russia. > > Jakob > > > > > > Quoting James E Oberg : > >> From Altay Region -- reports of an explosion... >> >> "Explosion was of such force that for 100 kilometers nearly all glass >> shattered from the windows. I live here 40 years, we became accustomed to >> the fact that fall the steps (carrier rockets), but there was no such >> strong >> explosion, not once", said Borisov. >> >> >> >> According to him, there is no information about the victims as yet "and >> there couldn't be", since it's already night and this locality is almost >> inaccessible. The data about that, are whether there are victims, there >> won't >> be any earlier than 11.00 AM local time (8.00 msk), since to reach them >> will >> be either on helicopters or on the tankettes, he noted. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Jones" >> To: "FPSpace" >> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:05 AM >> Subject: [FPSPACE] Progress launch failure (1st in history) >> >> >>> For the first time ever, a Progress launch failed today. >>> Communications was lost during the 3rd stage burn and the spacecraft >>> failed to reach orbit. >>> >>> Given that this is the same launcher used to launch crews to ISS, and >>> there's no current alternative, any interruption in future flights is >>> very bad news for ISS. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> FPSPACE mailing list >>> FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >>> http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> FPSPACE mailing list >> FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >> http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > > > > > > Jakob Terweij > j van Lennepstraat 249C > 1053 JD Amsterdam > +31651549606 > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace From pjp961 at svol.net Fri Sep 9 11:34:58 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 11:34:58 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Quality control issues of Russian high tech In-Reply-To: <20110909094314.9ll3niirq5mo4k88@webmail.dds.nl> Message-ID: <4e6a3235.52ade00a.34c8.5e54@mx.google.com> Quality control has always been the Achilles heel of Russia's prodigious technological prowess. If one visits the CIA's FOIA Electronic Reading Room on the Web, one can find numerous (I would say near-legion) reports on the USSR which always have a lot of commentary about bad quality-control, no matter the subject. I just received recently a National Intelligence Estimate from October 1968 on "Soviet Strategic Attack Forces," and I was dumbfounded to read that the US military stated to US policy makers that the "Reliability" (in percent) of the major Soviet ICBM systems at the time was far from optimal (nothing in the 90% range at all). The "Force Reliability" (as in that the warhead would actually get over to the United States, and maybe explode, and perhaps explode somewhere near where it was allegedly targeted) was shown to be the following. SS-7 70-75% Reliability. SS-8 55-60% Reliabliity. SS-9 70-75% Reliablity. SS-11 75-80% Reliability. SS-13 55-60% Reliability. These "Top Secret All Source Restricted Data" factoids are quite telling. I would also say shocking. -----Original Message----- From: fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org [mailto:fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org] On Behalf Of Jakob Terweij Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 3:43 AM To: fpspace at www.friends-partners.org Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Progress launch failure (1st in history) Friends, overhere in Russia everybody is in shock about this aircraft accident near Jaroslav.which killed the whole icehokky team of Jaroslav. But if you look at the facts it is not only rockets that fall from the sky, not long ago the river boat neer Kazan, not long ago this helicopter I think it was MI 26 this weekend a MIG 31 and now the Jak 42. The general opinion is that it is a lack of qualified technicians and every body wants to get rich as soon as possible, so no repair , faulty parts (second hand), to many people on the boat (sell tickets is more important than people lives.) Medwedev said yesterday that if the problems with the aircraft agencies(now 130 )not will be solved we have to buy good equipment and airplanes abroad. Still in the metro you can buy any diploma or other paper necessary. Young people are not going to work in Factories like Energya and earn 500 dollars a month, they are working abroad or in commercial firms. Now in Energya the old people are leaving and there is no one to take their place.This is showing every where in Russia. Jakob Quoting James E Oberg : > From Altay Region -- reports of an explosion... > > "Explosion was of such force that for 100 kilometers nearly all glass > shattered from the windows. I live here 40 years, we became accustomed to > the fact that fall the steps (carrier rockets), but there was no such strong > explosion, not once", said Borisov. > > > > According to him, there is no information about the victims as yet "and > there couldn't be", since it's already night and this locality is almost > inaccessible. The data about that, are whether there are victims, there won't > be any earlier than 11.00 AM local time (8.00 msk), since to reach them will > be either on helicopters or on the tankettes, he noted. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Jones" > To: "FPSpace" > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:05 AM > Subject: [FPSPACE] Progress launch failure (1st in history) > > >> For the first time ever, a Progress launch failed today. >> Communications was lost during the 3rd stage burn and the spacecraft >> failed to reach orbit. >> >> Given that this is the same launcher used to launch crews to ISS, and >> there's no current alternative, any interruption in future flights is >> very bad news for ISS. >> _______________________________________________ >> FPSPACE mailing list >> FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >> http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace >> > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace Jakob Terweij j van Lennepstraat 249C 1053 JD Amsterdam +31651549606 _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace From svengrahn at bahnhof.se Fri Sep 9 14:06:15 2011 From: svengrahn at bahnhof.se (Sven Grahn) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 20:06:15 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Quality control issues of Russian high tech In-Reply-To: <4e6a3235.52ade00a.34c8.5e54@mx.google.com> References: <4e6a3235.52ade00a.34c8.5e54@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <55503DA2-A5F7-4507-BB8A-676913660F80@bahnhof.se> What are the corresponding US figures? Sven Skickat fr?n min iPhone Sven Grahn R?ttviksv?gen 44 192 71 Sollentuna Sweden Mobile: +46 70 3443844 svengrahn at Bahnhof.se www.svengrahn.pp.se Skype sven.grahn1 9 sep 2011 kl. 17:34 skrev "Peter Pesavento" : > Quality control has always been the Achilles heel of Russia's prodigious > technological prowess. > > > If one visits the CIA's FOIA Electronic Reading Room on the Web, one can > find numerous (I would say near-legion) reports on the USSR which always > have a lot of commentary about bad quality-control, no matter the subject. > > I just received recently a National Intelligence Estimate from October 1968 > on "Soviet Strategic Attack Forces," and I was dumbfounded to read that the > US military stated to US policy makers that the "Reliability" (in percent) > of the major Soviet ICBM systems at the time was far from optimal (nothing > in the 90% range at all). The "Force Reliability" (as in that the warhead > would actually get over to the United States, and maybe explode, and perhaps > explode somewhere near where it was allegedly targeted) was shown to be the > following. > > SS-7 70-75% Reliability. > > SS-8 55-60% Reliabliity. > > SS-9 70-75% Reliablity. > > SS-11 75-80% Reliability. > > SS-13 55-60% Reliability. > > These "Top Secret All Source Restricted Data" factoids are quite telling. I > would also say shocking. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org > [mailto:fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org] On Behalf Of Jakob Terweij > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 3:43 AM > To: fpspace at www.friends-partners.org > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Progress launch failure (1st in history) > > > Friends, > overhere in Russia everybody is in shock about this aircraft accident > near Jaroslav.which killed the whole icehokky team of Jaroslav. > But if you look at the facts it is not only rockets that fall from the > sky, not long ago the river boat neer Kazan, not long ago this > helicopter I think it was MI 26 this weekend a MIG 31 and now the Jak > 42. > The general opinion is that it is a lack of qualified technicians and > every body wants to get rich as soon as possible, so no repair , > faulty parts (second hand), to many people on the boat (sell tickets > is more important than people lives.) > Medwedev said yesterday that if the problems with the aircraft > agencies(now 130 )not will be solved we have to buy good equipment and > airplanes abroad. > Still in the metro you can buy any diploma or other paper necessary. > Young people are not going to work in Factories like Energya and earn > 500 dollars a month, they are working abroad or in commercial firms. > Now in Energya the old people are leaving and there is no one to take > their place.This is showing every where in Russia. > > Jakob > > > > > > Quoting James E Oberg : > >> From Altay Region -- reports of an explosion... >> >> "Explosion was of such force that for 100 kilometers nearly all glass >> shattered from the windows. I live here 40 years, we became accustomed to >> the fact that fall the steps (carrier rockets), but there was no such > strong >> explosion, not once", said Borisov. >> >> >> >> According to him, there is no information about the victims as yet "and >> there couldn't be", since it's already night and this locality is almost >> inaccessible. The data about that, are whether there are victims, there > won't >> be any earlier than 11.00 AM local time (8.00 msk), since to reach them > will >> be either on helicopters or on the tankettes, he noted. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Jones" >> To: "FPSpace" >> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:05 AM >> Subject: [FPSPACE] Progress launch failure (1st in history) >> >> >>> For the first time ever, a Progress launch failed today. >>> Communications was lost during the 3rd stage burn and the spacecraft >>> failed to reach orbit. >>> >>> Given that this is the same launcher used to launch crews to ISS, and >>> there's no current alternative, any interruption in future flights is >>> very bad news for ISS. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> FPSPACE mailing list >>> FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >>> http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> FPSPACE mailing list >> FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >> http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > > > > > > Jakob Terweij > j van Lennepstraat 249C > 1053 JD Amsterdam > +31651549606 > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace From davidlrickman at aol.com Fri Sep 9 15:09:12 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 15:09:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Soviet and American Lunar Program. A Comparative Analysis Message-ID: <8CE3D3B181C1FF0-D48-86BD4@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> Hello FPSpacers, This is a very good article. President John F. Kennedy said that the United States "should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the earth." But did the United States actually follow this goal? This article suggest that when comparing the plan of the United States to the plan of the Soviet Union, it is apparent that US didn't actually follow that goal. It's worth reading: http://ligaspace.my1.ru/news/2011-07-07-315 Best Regards, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Sat Sep 10 16:56:02 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 16:56:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] =?utf-8?b?SW4gTmVlZCBvZiAgOC8yMDExICLQoNCQ0JTQmNCeIiBh?= =?utf-8?q?nd_Luna-17_Images?= Message-ID: <8CE3E132F082B18-1854-ACA7@webmail-m036.sysops.aol.com> Hello FPSpacers, I am in need of high-resolution photos of ????-17 similar to the views seen in these two images: http://fiz.1september.ru/2010/06/7-2.jpg http://gorod.tomsk.ru/uploads/34046/1265314991/lh3.jpg In addition to those I am looking for high resolution scans (300 dpi or greater) of a couple of photos found in the 8/2011 issue of "?????", specifically photos 2 and 3 found on pages 8 and 9. I have this issue in DjVu, but this format is horrible for its' reproduction of images. Many Thanks in advance! Best regards, David L. Rickman DavidLRickman at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cdomashnev at acm.org Sat Sep 10 18:39:24 2011 From: cdomashnev at acm.org (Constantine Domashnev) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 18:39:24 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Quality control issues of Russian high tech In-Reply-To: <4e6a3235.52ade00a.34c8.5e54@mx.google.com> Message-ID: * The "Force Reliability" (as in that the warhead would actually get over to the United States, and maybe explode, and perhaps explode somewhere near where it was allegedly targeted) was shown to be the following. SS-7 70-75% Reliability. *Did the Estimate definitively state the 'suboptimal' reliability was due exclusively to poor quality control? Hypothetically, in this case operational issues and/or guidance problems can be contributing factors as well.KD -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drwoods at stny.rr.com Mon Sep 12 10:24:14 2011 From: drwoods at stny.rr.com (David R. Woods) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 10:24:14 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Launch Statistics of the Soyuz Rocket Family Message-ID: <4E6E160E.1080600@stny.rr.com> The latest Space Report by Jonathan McDowell has an interesting section on Launch Statistics of the Soyuz Rocket Family, in addition to details on recent launches. Details can be found at: http://www.planet4589.org/jsr.html. This is an excellent free service with subscription details at: http://www.planet4589.org/mailman/listinfo/jsr. From davidlrickman at aol.com Mon Sep 12 22:29:38 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 22:29:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Lunniy Korabl Mystery Object Question: Answered! Message-ID: <8CE3FD41E9B8A76-2E08-3D549@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> Hello FPSpacers, First of all, let me thank those people who have helped me analyze the Lunniy Korabl, and especially those who have provided what is at times the most basic and educational source of information ... photographs. With your help I am almost to the point of knowing this vehicle inside and out. A few weeks ago I posed a question to this group relating to the identify and function of this nozzle-like structure located at the base of the Orientation Engine Block on the Lunniy Korabl: ( http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6085/6058168828_c7ebaf63ca.jpg ) As it turns out the mystery object is neither a conical antenna, nor a zero-torque thruster, nor a gas bleeding nozzle of any kind. It is the base of one of the four upper attachment points which hold the framework used to protect the LK from from its' own launch fairing. I kid you not. Best regards, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Wed Sep 14 10:27:57 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES ) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 14:27:57 +0000 Subject: [FPSPACE] Fwd: NASA Announces Major Decisions For Future Human Spaceflight Message-ID: ---------- Sent from AT&T Wireless using Windows Live Hotmail -----Original Message----- From: KSC News Center Sent: 1/1/0001 12:00:00 AM To: KSC News Center Subject: NASA Announces Major Decisions For Future Human Spaceflight Sept. 14, 2011 Allard Beutel Kennedy Space Center, Fla. 321-867-2468 allard.beutel at nasa.gov Michael Braukus/J.D. Harrington Headquarters, Washington 202-358-1979/5241 michael.j.braukus at nasa.gov/j.d.harrington at nasa.gov MEDIA ADVISORY: M11-194 NASA ANNOUNCES MAJOR DECISIONS FOR FUTURE HUMAN SPACEFLIGHT WASHINGTON -- NASA leaders will participate in two media events Wednesday, Sept. 14, to discuss the new Space Launch System that will take American astronauts farther into space than ever before. At 10 a.m. EDT, NASA Administrator Charles Bolden will join members of Congress, including Sens. Kay Bailey Hutchison and Bill Nelson, for a news conference in SDG-50 on the ground floor of the Senate Dirksen Building in Washington. The event will be webcast live on the Senate Commerce Committee's website at: http://commerce.senate.gov At 12 p.m. NASA will hold a background media teleconference with William Gerstenmaier, associate administrator for NASA's Human Exploration and Operations (HEO) Mission Directorate; Doug Cooke, deputy associate administrator for HEO; NASA Chief Financial Officer Beth Robinson and other senior managers. To participate, reporters must e-mail their name, media affiliation and telephone number to J.D. Harrington at j.d.harrington at nasa.gov by 11:30 a.m. EDT Wednesday. Audio of the teleconference will be streamed live at: http://www.nasa.gov/newsaudio For more information about NASA's plans for future human space exploration, visit: http://www.nasa.gov/exploration -end- To subscribe to the list, send a message to: ksc-subscribe at newsletters.nasa.gov To remove your address from the list, send a message to: ksc-unsubscribe at newsletters.nasa.gov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjp961 at svol.net Wed Sep 14 16:43:33 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 16:43:33 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] delay of the launching of the Chinese space station module....has it been rescheduled? Message-ID: <4e711242.06ca640a.7f1b.ffffa537@mx.google.com> Since the first 10 days of September have come and gone, without the launching of China's first space station module, does anyone know if it has been announced as to its rescheduling? If you know, please provide the update details. Thanks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rcb at netcabo.pt Wed Sep 14 16:53:00 2011 From: rcb at netcabo.pt (Rui C. Barbosa) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 21:53:00 +0100 Subject: [FPSPACE] delay of the launching of the Chinese space stationmodule....has it been rescheduled? In-Reply-To: <4e711242.06ca640a.7f1b.ffffa537@mx.google.com> References: <4e711242.06ca640a.7f1b.ffffa537@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <9EE820A2E01C4B289B0677DFB0092758@RuiBarbosaPC> Hi! Yes, the launch was delayed because of the CZ-2C / Shi Jian 11-04 accident. Rumors say that the launch can take place on September 27. BR?s Rui C. Barbosa www.zenite.nu/orbita www.carris-geres.blogspot.com Braga - Portugal From: Peter Pesavento Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:43 PM To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: [FPSPACE] delay of the launching of the Chinese space stationmodule....has it been rescheduled? Since the first 10 days of September have come and gone, without the launching of China?s first space station module, does anyone know if it has been announced as to its rescheduling? If you know, please provide the update details. Thanks. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drwoods at stny.rr.com Thu Sep 15 09:13:15 2011 From: drwoods at stny.rr.com (David R. Woods) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:13:15 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] NASA Announces Design for New Deep Space Exploration System Message-ID: <4E71F9EB.4010001@stny.rr.com> NASA is ready to move forward with the development of the Space Launch System -- an advanced heavy-lift launch vehicle that will provide an entirely new national capability for human exploration beyond Earth's orbit. The Space Launch System will give the nation a safe, affordable and sustainable means of reaching beyond our current limits and opening up new discoveries from the unique vantage point of space. The Space Launch System, or SLS, will be designed to carry the Orion Multi-Purpose Crew Vehicle, as well as important cargo, equipment and science experiments to Earth's orbit and destinations beyond. Additionally, the SLS will serve as a back up for commercial and international partner transportation services to the International Space Station. "This launch system will create good-paying American jobs, ensure continued U.S. leadership in space, and inspire millions around the world," NASA Administrator Charles Bolden said. "President Obama challenged us to be bold and dream big, and that's exactly what we are doing at NASA. While I was proud to fly on the space shuttle, tomorrow's explorers will now dream of one day walking on Mars." The SLS rocket will incorporate technological investments from the Space Shuttle Program and the Constellation Program in order to take advantage of proven hardware and cutting-edge tooling and manufacturing technology that will significantly reduce development and operations costs. It will use a liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen propulsion system, which will include the RS-25D/E from the Space Shuttle Program for the core stage and the J-2X engine for the upper stage. SLS will also use solid rocket boosters for the initial development flights, while follow-on boosters will be competed based on performance requirements and affordability considerations. The SLS will have an initial lift capacity of 70 metric tons. That's more than 154,000 pounds, or 77 tons, roughly the weight of 40 sport utility vehicles. The lift capacity will be evolvable to 130 metric tons -- more than 286,000 pounds, or 143 tons -- enough to lift 75 SUVs. The first developmental flight, or mission, is targeted for the end of 2017. This specific architecture was selected, largely because it utilizes an evolvable development approach, which allows NASA to address high-cost development activities early on in the program and take advantage of higher buying power before inflation erodes the available funding of a fixed budget. This architecture also enables NASA to leverage existing capabilities and lower development costs by using liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen for both the core and upper stages. Additionally, this architecture provides a modular launch vehicle that can be configured for specific mission needs using a variation of common elements. NASA may not need to lift 130 metric tons for each mission and the flexibility of this modular architecture allows the agency to use different core stage, upper stage, and first-stage booster combinations to achieve the most efficient launch vehicle for the desired mission. "NASA has been making steady progress toward realizing the president's goal of deep space exploration, while doing so in a more affordable way," NASA Deputy Administrator Lori Garver said. "We have been driving down the costs on the Space Launch System and Orion contracts by adopting new ways of doing business and project hundreds of millions of dollars of savings each year." The Space Launch System will be NASA's first exploration-class vehicle since the Saturn V took American astronauts to the moon over 40 years ago. With its superior lift capability, the SLS will expand our reach in the solar system and allow us to explore cis-lunar space, near-Earth asteroids, Mars and its moons and beyond. We will learn more about how the solar system formed, where Earth's water and organics originated and how life might be sustained in places far from our Earth's atmosphere and expand the boundaries of human exploration. These discoveries will change the way we understand ourselves, our planet, and its place in the universe. http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/systems/sls/sls1.html From cpgorski at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 09:37:36 2011 From: cpgorski at gmail.com (Christopher Gorski) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:37:36 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] NASA Announces Design for New Deep Space Exploration System In-Reply-To: <4E71F9EB.4010001@stny.rr.com> References: <4E71F9EB.4010001@stny.rr.com> Message-ID: Anybody else curious why they've stuck with RS-25s? I thought they were terribly expensive because they were designed for 7.5 hours service and fifty-something restarts. Thought the RS-68 was supposed to be a good high-thrust disposable alternative...? or does "D/E" now mean a cheaper version? I'd guess politics, but I think they're both from Pratt & Whitney / Rocketdyne... --me On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 9:13 AM, David R. Woods wrote: > NASA is ready to move forward with the development of the Space Launch > System -- an advanced heavy-lift launch vehicle that will provide an > entirely new national capability for human exploration beyond Earth's orbit. > The Space Launch System will give the nation a safe, affordable and > sustainable means of reaching beyond our current limits and opening up new > discoveries from the unique vantage point of space. > > The Space Launch System, or SLS, will be designed to carry the Orion > Multi-Purpose Crew Vehicle, as well as important cargo, equipment and > science experiments to Earth's orbit and destinations beyond. Additionally, > the SLS will serve as a back up for commercial and international partner > transportation services to the International Space Station. > > "This launch system will create good-paying American jobs, ensure continued > U.S. leadership in space, and inspire millions around the world," NASA > Administrator Charles Bolden said. "President Obama challenged us to be bold > and dream big, and that's exactly what we are doing at NASA. While I was > proud to fly on the space shuttle, tomorrow's explorers will now dream of > one day walking on Mars." > > The SLS rocket will incorporate technological investments from the Space > Shuttle Program and the Constellation Program in order to take advantage of > proven hardware and cutting-edge tooling and manufacturing technology that > will significantly reduce development and operations costs. It will use a > liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen propulsion system, which will include the > RS-25D/E from the Space Shuttle Program for the core stage and the J-2X > engine for the upper stage. SLS will also use solid rocket boosters for the > initial development flights, while follow-on boosters will be competed based > on performance requirements and affordability considerations. The SLS will > have an initial lift capacity of 70 metric tons. That's more than 154,000 > pounds, or 77 tons, roughly the weight of 40 sport utility vehicles. The > lift capacity will be evolvable to 130 metric tons -- more than 286,000 > pounds, or 143 tons -- enough to lift 75 SUVs. The first developmental > flight, or mission, is targeted for the end of 2017. > > This specific architecture was selected, largely because it utilizes an > evolvable development approach, which allows NASA to address high-cost > development activities early on in the program and take advantage of higher > buying power before inflation erodes the available funding of a fixed > budget. This architecture also enables NASA to leverage existing > capabilities and lower development costs by using liquid hydrogen and liquid > oxygen for both the core and upper stages. Additionally, this architecture > provides a modular launch vehicle that can be configured for specific > mission needs using a variation of common elements. NASA may not need to > lift 130 metric tons for each mission and the flexibility of this modular > architecture allows the agency to use different core stage, upper stage, and > first-stage booster combinations to achieve the most efficient launch > vehicle for the desired mission. > > "NASA has been making steady progress toward realizing the president's goal > of deep space exploration, while doing so in a more affordable way," NASA > Deputy Administrator Lori Garver said. "We have been driving down the costs > on the Space Launch System and Orion contracts by adopting new ways of doing > business and project hundreds of millions of dollars of savings each year." > > The Space Launch System will be NASA's first exploration-class vehicle > since the Saturn V took American astronauts to the moon over 40 years ago. > With its superior lift capability, the SLS will expand our reach in the > solar system and allow us to explore cis-lunar space, near-Earth asteroids, > Mars and its moons and beyond. We will learn more about how the solar system > formed, where Earth's water and organics originated and how life might be > sustained in places far from our Earth's atmosphere and expand the > boundaries of human exploration. These discoveries will change the way we > understand ourselves, our planet, and its place in the universe. > > http://www.nasa.gov/**exploration/systems/sls/sls1.**html > > ______________________________**_________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.**org > http://www.friends-partners.**org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave.harland at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 15 09:48:05 2011 From: dave.harland at ntlworld.com (David M Harland) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 14:48:05 +0100 Subject: [FPSPACE] NASA Announces Design for New Deep Space Exploration System In-Reply-To: References: <4E71F9EB.4010001@stny.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20110915144636.03391e58@pop3.ntlworld.com> At 14:37 15/09/2011, Christopher Gorski wrote: >Anybody else curious why they've stuck with RS-25s? I thought they >were terribly expensive because they were designed for 7.5 hours >service and fifty-something restarts. Thought the RS-68 was >supposed to be a good high-thrust disposable alternative...? The story I heard was that 200 mods would be required to man-rate the RS-68. Of course, what they should really do is limit the heavy-lifter to unmanned payloads and send crews up in one of these commercial spacecraft, but having fostered such private ventures NASA seems determined to undermine them. dmh >or does "D/E" now mean a cheaper version? > >I'd guess politics, but I think they're both from Pratt & Whitney / >Rocketdyne... > >--me > > >On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 9:13 AM, David R. Woods ><drwoods at stny.rr.com> wrote: >NASA is ready to move forward with the development of the Space >Launch System -- an advanced heavy-lift launch vehicle that will >provide an entirely new national capability for human exploration >beyond Earth's orbit. The Space Launch System will give the nation a >safe, affordable and sustainable means of reaching beyond our >current limits and opening up new discoveries from the unique >vantage point of space. > >The Space Launch System, or SLS, will be designed to carry the Orion >Multi-Purpose Crew Vehicle, as well as important cargo, equipment >and science experiments to Earth's orbit and destinations beyond. >Additionally, the SLS will serve as a back up for commercial and >international partner transportation services to the International >Space Station. > >"This launch system will create good-paying American jobs, ensure >continued U.S. leadership in space, and inspire millions around the >world," NASA Administrator Charles Bolden said. "President Obama >challenged us to be bold and dream big, and that's exactly what we >are doing at NASA. While I was proud to fly on the space shuttle, >tomorrow's explorers will now dream of one day walking on Mars." > >The SLS rocket will incorporate technological investments from the >Space Shuttle Program and the Constellation Program in order to take >advantage of proven hardware and cutting-edge tooling and >manufacturing technology that will significantly reduce development >and operations costs. It will use a liquid hydrogen and liquid >oxygen propulsion system, which will include the RS-25D/E from the >Space Shuttle Program for the core stage and the J-2X engine for the >upper stage. SLS will also use solid rocket boosters for the initial >development flights, while follow-on boosters will be competed based >on performance requirements and affordability considerations. The >SLS will have an initial lift capacity of 70 metric tons. That's >more than 154,000 pounds, or 77 tons, roughly the weight of 40 sport >utility vehicles. The lift capacity will be evolvable to 130 metric >tons -- more than 286,000 pounds, or 143 tons -- enough to lift 75 >SUVs. The first developmental flight, or mission, is targeted for >the end of 2017. > >This specific architecture was selected, largely because it utilizes >an evolvable development approach, which allows NASA to address >high-cost development activities early on in the program and take >advantage of higher buying power before inflation erodes the >available funding of a fixed budget. This architecture also enables >NASA to leverage existing capabilities and lower development costs >by using liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen for both the core and >upper stages. Additionally, this architecture provides a modular >launch vehicle that can be configured for specific mission needs >using a variation of common elements. NASA may not need to lift 130 >metric tons for each mission and the flexibility of this modular >architecture allows the agency to use different core stage, upper >stage, and first-stage booster combinations to achieve the most >efficient launch vehicle for the desired mission. > >"NASA has been making steady progress toward realizing the >president's goal of deep space exploration, while doing so in a more >affordable way," NASA Deputy Administrator Lori Garver said. "We >have been driving down the costs on the Space Launch System and >Orion contracts by adopting new ways of doing business and project >hundreds of millions of dollars of savings each year." > >The Space Launch System will be NASA's first exploration-class >vehicle since the Saturn V took American astronauts to the moon over >40 years ago. With its superior lift capability, the SLS will expand >our reach in the solar system and allow us to explore cis-lunar >space, near-Earth asteroids, Mars and its moons and beyond. We will >learn more about how the solar system formed, where Earth's water >and organics originated and how life might be sustained in places >far from our Earth's atmosphere and expand the boundaries of human >exploration. These discoveries will change the way we understand >ourselves, our planet, and its place in the universe. > >http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/systems/sls/sls1.html > >_______________________________________________ >FPSPACE mailing list >FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > >_______________________________________________ >FPSPACE mailing list >FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjp961 at svol.net Thu Sep 15 10:36:06 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:36:06 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] FW: NASA Announces Design for New Deep Space ExplorationSystem Message-ID: <4e720d6e.0d73cd0a.3f8e.ffffc05b@mx.google.com> Is this new Heavy Lift Launch System real? By that, I mean, does it have funding? What kind of funding? In this current economic environment where the Republicans want to slash and burn just about everything, how realistic are the prospects of this launcher system actually getting adequate funding for its development--and not just for one year or two? How about through 2017 (alleged timetable of first launch)? This smells like d?j? vu all over again with a previous rocket--which actually lifted off (in mostly mock-up mode) last year (was it), before it got cancelled? I don?t believe this pipe dream until there is dedicated, sustained funding. And it may not get that. Even the trips to asteroids and to Mars--eh, those are just paper studies. (Which yes, are better than hand-waving proclamations.) The Apollo trip to Aristarchus crater (if I have the right crater identified, if memory serves) had more of a realistic chance in my view. From n_horsley at msn.com Thu Sep 15 06:55:37 2011 From: n_horsley at msn.com (Nathanael Horsley) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:55:37 +0000 Subject: [FPSPACE] fpspace@friends-partners.org Message-ID: yo here is something I came across last night http://www.nbci7review.com/?date=09142011&article=3029 talk to you later From drwoods at stny.rr.com Thu Sep 15 11:31:18 2011 From: drwoods at stny.rr.com (David R. Woods) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 11:31:18 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] NASA Announces Design for New Deep Space Exploration System Message-ID: <4E721A46.3040608@stny.rr.com> It is interesting to see coverage on this subject from the Russian side. Here is a rough machine translation: ************************************************** http://tvroscosmos.ru/frm/kosmostv/vesti/2011/vesti150911.php NASA to built the most powerful rocket in history NASA engineers say that they have started work on the most powerful space rocket in history. It will fly not only to the ISS, but also much more - where has not yet been a single person. Its purpose will be for asteroids, moons of Mars - and, of course, the Red Planet itself. True, to achieve its planned no sooner than twenty years. The project - it is only computer animation, but represent it in Washington as a breakthrough in space exploration. This missile - a compilation of the technologies that NASA has accumulated over recent decades: striking five engines, which are so reminiscent of the shuttle boosters. Almost certainly the new rocket will be flown for the ship "Orion", which is part of the "Constellation", which was recently cancelled by the Obama administration. Countdown to go - before the start of six years. "What else do we do in space? After 30 years in orbit is quite obvious we need to move on. It should be open," - said the director of the Department of History of Astronautics NASA Valerie Neal. The missile has not yet received a name - its scientists dryly call it the "system launched in space." This includes the ability to deliver into orbit from 70 to 100 tons. It's not very much when you consider that the carrier "Saturn 5" - the brainchild of designer Wernher von Braun, with which the Americans flew to the moon, lifted into orbit up to 140 tons. The fact that it is possible to repeat the elements of the U.S. space program 60, the head of NASA calls a "new chapter in space". 35 billion, plus another three billion each year - as many will cost the space truck. This premier concludes many months of controversy and congressional scholars, because at present, NASA has not a ship that could deliver to orbit the astronauts and cargo - the first time in half a century. When in orbit, for example, it will not be collected in installments sverhkorabl the future, the appointment of the missiles - just pull heavy loads. For example, the massive new-generation communications satellites. If the parameters and the appearance of the rocket is not a secret, which Washington intends to send to this space technology astronauts, it is not clear. If four years ago, the Republican administration going back to the moon and building a space base there, then Barack Obama, abandoned these plans, he said aloud to a manned mission to an asteroid in 2015. "Researchers dream that one day man will walk on Mars" - a vaguely put NASA chief Charles Bolden, demonstrating a new missile cartoon on the Hill. From routierx at tpg.com.au Thu Sep 15 11:44:40 2011 From: routierx at tpg.com.au (Brett & Sue) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 01:44:40 +1000 Subject: [FPSPACE] THIS EMAIL WAS SPAM ---> RE: fpspace@friends-partners.org Message-ID: <000c01cc73be$62d66520$28832f60$@tpg.com.au> -----Original Message----- From: fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org [mailto:fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org] On Behalf Of Nathanael Horsley Sent: Thursday, 15 September 2011 8:56 PM To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: [FPSPACE] fpspace at friends-partners.org yo here is something I came across last night http://www.nbci7review.com/?date=09142011&article=3029 talk to you later _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace From pjp961 at svol.net Thu Sep 15 17:24:08 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 17:24:08 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] new Kepler satellite discovery: planet circling two suns (200 light years away from Earth) Message-ID: <4e726d0f.d0c8e30a.50b0.643d@mx.google.com> >From Agency France Presse (via Raw Story) http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/09/15/u-s-astronomers-find-planet-with-two-s uns/ U.S. astronomers find planet with two Suns By Agence France-Presse September 15, 2011 @ 3:50 pm WASHINGTON - US astronomers said Thursday they have discovered the first planet that is orbiting two Suns, much like the fictional home of Luke Skywalker featured in Star Wars. Skywalker's native planet of Tatooine was hot and desert-like, but this planet, called Kepler-16b, is a freezing cold world about the size of Saturn, orbiting two parent Suns in a near perfect circle about 200 light years away. The planet was glimpsed with the US space agency's Kepler space telescope, which monitors the brightness of 155,000 stars, according to the research published in the journal Science. "This discovery is stunning," said co-author Alan Boss of the Carnegie Institution for Science Department of Terrestrial Magnetism. "Once again, what used to be science fiction has turned into reality." While astronomers have previously glimpsed planets they believed were orbiting two stars, they had never before seen one actually passing in front of its two Suns so this discovery offers the first proof. "Kepler-16b is the first confirmed, unambiguous example of a circumbinary planet -- a planet orbiting not one, but two stars," said co-author Josh Carter of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. "Once again, we're finding that our solar system is only one example of the variety of planetary systems nature can create." If there were people on Kepler-16b, they could relax to the view of a double sunset, but such a scenario is highly unlikely due to the planet's extreme frigid surface temperature of -100 to -150 Fahrenheit (-73 to -101 Celsius). The chill is likely due to the fact that even though the planet has two Suns which it orbits every 229 days at a distance of 65 million miles (105 million kilometers), they are smaller and cooler than our single Sun. One of Kepler-16b's Suns is 20 percent as massive as ours, and the other is 69 percent as massive. While the planet orbits them, the two Suns dance with each other in an "eccentric 41-day orbit," the study said. The study was led by Kepler scientist Laurance Doyle of the California-based SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) Institute. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Fri Sep 16 14:15:09 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 14:15:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Problem with Novosti Kosmonavtiki Forum? Message-ID: <8CE42B3B3DA5A6E-19F4-13407@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> Hi FPSpacers, Does anybody know what's going on with the Novosti Kosmonavtiki Forum? It will only allow access to two of the subjects (Information and Manned Spaceflight) but won't even allow replies on those. The message reads, "only moderators are allowed to post/ read topics in this forum." I NEED my NK! This is driving me nuts! Thans, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From agzak at optonline.net Fri Sep 16 16:48:14 2011 From: agzak at optonline.net (Anatoly Zak) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:48:14 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Problem with Novosti Kosmonavtiki Forum? In-Reply-To: <8CE42B3B3DA5A6E-19F4-13407@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Just technical problems. Anatoly Zak http://www.RussianSpaceWeb.com On 9/16/11 2:15 PM, "davidlrickman at aol.com" wrote: > Hi FPSpacers, > > Does anybody know what's going on with the Novosti Kosmonavtiki Forum? It will > only allow access to two of the subjects (Information and Manned Spaceflight) > but won't even allow replies on those. The message reads, "only moderators are > allowed to post/ read topics in this forum." > > I NEED my NK! This is driving me nuts! > > > Thans, > > David L. Rickman > > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Fri Sep 16 16:50:53 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:50:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Problem with Novosti Kosmonavtiki Forum? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CE42C975851D9F-19F4-15900@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> Yes, Igor Afanasev told me they are working on it. -----Original Message----- From: Anatoly Zak To: Untitled Sent: Fri, Sep 16, 2011 12:48 pm Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Problem with Novosti Kosmonavtiki Forum? Just technical problems. Anatoly Zak http://www.RussianSpaceWeb.com On 9/16/11 2:15 PM, "davidlrickman at aol.com" wrote: Hi FPSpacers, Does anybody know what's going on with the Novosti Kosmonavtiki Forum? It will only allow access to two of the subjects (Information and Manned Spaceflight) but won't even allow replies on those. The message reads, "only moderators are allowed to post/ read topics in this forum." I NEED my NK! This is driving me nuts! Thans, David L. Rickman _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pao.ulivi at gmail.com Sat Sep 17 09:16:51 2011 From: pao.ulivi at gmail.com (Paolo Ulivi) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:16:51 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Mariner 69: a small mystery (finally) solved Message-ID: I wanted to share something I only recently found that finally solves what for me had always been a small mystery. you may remember that the dates of the last contact with Mariner 6 and 7 are apparently not available. I knew that there had been solar conjunctions observed in spring 1970, but how long again the probes were heard was not clear. I have finally found the information in the 3rd volume of the technical memo JPL-TM-33-474 "Tracking and data system support for the Mariner Mars 1969 mission. Volume 3: Extended operations mission" ( http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19710026683) the extended mission was funded up to 30 December 1970, and it appears that telemetry was last received from both spacecraft on DOY355 (21 December 1970). Both were to be placed "in final state" on 23,29,30 December. Note also on page 70 this sentence: "Week of December 28, Mariner 7, pass 643: Downlink signal was lost from the spacecraft because the spacecraft lost attitude control and began tumbling (attitude control gas supply apparently was depleted)." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Sat Sep 17 20:59:25 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 18:59:25 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Mariner 69: a small mystery (finally) solved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Paolo: I had someone remark on my blog a week or so ago that Mariner 6 and 7 transmitted for long enough to enter the Main Belt. Based on the aphelion distance he provided, this was not correct. What's your take on this question? David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:16:51 +0200 From: pao.ulivi at gmail.com To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: [FPSPACE] Mariner 69: a small mystery (finally) solved I wanted to share something I only recently found that finally solves what for me had always been a small mystery. you may remember that the dates of the last contact with Mariner 6 and 7 are apparently not available. I knew that there had been solar conjunctions observed in spring 1970, but how long again the probes were heard was not clear. I have finally found the information in the 3rd volume of the technical memo JPL-TM-33-474 "Tracking and data system support for the Mariner Mars 1969 mission. Volume 3: Extended operations mission" (http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19710026683) the extended mission was funded up to 30 December 1970, and it appears that telemetry was last received from both spacecraft on DOY355 (21 December 1970). Both were to be placed "in final state" on 23,29,30 December. Note also on page 70 this sentence: "Week of December 28, Mariner 7, pass 643: Downlink signal was lost from the spacecraft because the spacecraft lost attitude control and began tumbling (attitude control gas supply apparently was depleted)." _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Nels.Anderson at gmx.net Sat Sep 17 22:32:21 2011 From: Nels.Anderson at gmx.net (Nels Anderson) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 04:32:21 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] NASA Announces Design for New Deep Space Exploration System In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20110915144636.03391e58@pop3.ntlworld.com> References: <4E71F9EB.4010001@stny.rr.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20110915144636.03391e58@pop3.ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20110918023221.127320@gmx.net> Since the core of SLS is required to make orbit all by itself, I wonder whether the RS-68's relatively low specific impulse and thrust-to-weight ratio relative to the RS-25 might be significant factors as well. On a standard first stage which jettisoned well before reaching orbit it would matter much less. -------- Original-Nachricht -------- > Datum: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 14:48:05 +0100 > Von: David M Harland > An: Christopher Gorski , "David R. Woods" , fpspace at friends-partners.org > Betreff: Re: [FPSPACE] NASA Announces Design for New Deep Space Exploration System > At 14:37 15/09/2011, Christopher Gorski wrote: > >Anybody else curious why they've stuck with RS-25s? I thought they > >were terribly expensive because they were designed for 7.5 hours > >service and fifty-something restarts. Thought the RS-68 was > >supposed to be a good high-thrust disposable alternative...? > > > The story I heard was that 200 mods would be required to man-rate the > RS-68. Of course, what they should really do is limit the > heavy-lifter to unmanned payloads and send crews up in one of these > commercial spacecraft, but having fostered such private ventures NASA > seems determined to undermine them. > > dmh > > > >or does "D/E" now mean a cheaper version? > > > >I'd guess politics, but I think they're both from Pratt & Whitney / > >Rocketdyne... > > > >--me > > > > > >On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 9:13 AM, David R. Woods > ><drwoods at stny.rr.com> wrote: > >NASA is ready to move forward with the development of the Space > >Launch System -- an advanced heavy-lift launch vehicle that will > >provide an entirely new national capability for human exploration > >beyond Earth's orbit. The Space Launch System will give the nation a > >safe, affordable and sustainable means of reaching beyond our > >current limits and opening up new discoveries from the unique > >vantage point of space. > > > >The Space Launch System, or SLS, will be designed to carry the Orion > >Multi-Purpose Crew Vehicle, as well as important cargo, equipment > >and science experiments to Earth's orbit and destinations beyond. > >Additionally, the SLS will serve as a back up for commercial and > >international partner transportation services to the International > >Space Station. > > > >"This launch system will create good-paying American jobs, ensure > >continued U.S. leadership in space, and inspire millions around the > >world," NASA Administrator Charles Bolden said. "President Obama > >challenged us to be bold and dream big, and that's exactly what we > >are doing at NASA. While I was proud to fly on the space shuttle, > >tomorrow's explorers will now dream of one day walking on Mars." > > > >The SLS rocket will incorporate technological investments from the > >Space Shuttle Program and the Constellation Program in order to take > >advantage of proven hardware and cutting-edge tooling and > >manufacturing technology that will significantly reduce development > >and operations costs. It will use a liquid hydrogen and liquid > >oxygen propulsion system, which will include the RS-25D/E from the > >Space Shuttle Program for the core stage and the J-2X engine for the > >upper stage. SLS will also use solid rocket boosters for the initial > >development flights, while follow-on boosters will be competed based > >on performance requirements and affordability considerations. The > >SLS will have an initial lift capacity of 70 metric tons. That's > >more than 154,000 pounds, or 77 tons, roughly the weight of 40 sport > >utility vehicles. The lift capacity will be evolvable to 130 metric > >tons -- more than 286,000 pounds, or 143 tons -- enough to lift 75 > >SUVs. The first developmental flight, or mission, is targeted for > >the end of 2017. > > > >This specific architecture was selected, largely because it utilizes > >an evolvable development approach, which allows NASA to address > >high-cost development activities early on in the program and take > >advantage of higher buying power before inflation erodes the > >available funding of a fixed budget. This architecture also enables > >NASA to leverage existing capabilities and lower development costs > >by using liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen for both the core and > >upper stages. Additionally, this architecture provides a modular > >launch vehicle that can be configured for specific mission needs > >using a variation of common elements. NASA may not need to lift 130 > >metric tons for each mission and the flexibility of this modular > >architecture allows the agency to use different core stage, upper > >stage, and first-stage booster combinations to achieve the most > >efficient launch vehicle for the desired mission. > > > >"NASA has been making steady progress toward realizing the > >president's goal of deep space exploration, while doing so in a more > >affordable way," NASA Deputy Administrator Lori Garver said. "We > >have been driving down the costs on the Space Launch System and > >Orion contracts by adopting new ways of doing business and project > >hundreds of millions of dollars of savings each year." > > > >The Space Launch System will be NASA's first exploration-class > >vehicle since the Saturn V took American astronauts to the moon over > >40 years ago. With its superior lift capability, the SLS will expand > >our reach in the solar system and allow us to explore cis-lunar > >space, near-Earth asteroids, Mars and its moons and beyond. We will > >learn more about how the solar system formed, where Earth's water > >and organics originated and how life might be sustained in places > >far from our Earth's atmosphere and expand the boundaries of human > >exploration. These discoveries will change the way we understand > >ourselves, our planet, and its place in the universe. > > > >http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/systems/sls/sls1.html > > > >_______________________________________________ > >FPSPACE mailing list > >FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > >http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >FPSPACE mailing list > >FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > >http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zur?ck-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone From pao.ulivi at gmail.com Sun Sep 18 03:57:47 2011 From: pao.ulivi at gmail.com (Paolo Ulivi) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 09:57:47 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Mariner 69: a small mystery (finally) solved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David I must confess that I discovered the very existence of this technical memo from that guy's post on your blog. I agree with your answer: Mariner 6 had aphelion at 1.75 AU, Mariner 7 at 1.69. While a strict definition of the extent of the asteroid belt is debatable, the density of objects does not pick up until 2.1 AU. see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kirkwood_Gaps.svg Paolo On Sun, Sep 18, 2011 at 2:59 AM, David Portree wrote: > Paolo: > > I had someone remark on my blog a week or so ago that Mariner 6 and 7 > transmitted for long enough to enter the Main Belt. Based on the aphelion > distance he provided, this was not correct. What's your take on this > question? > > David S. F. Portree > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > dportree at usgs.gov > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:16:51 +0200 > From: pao.ulivi at gmail.com > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org > Subject: [FPSPACE] Mariner 69: a small mystery (finally) solved > > I wanted to share something I only recently found that finally solves what > for me had always been a small mystery. > you may remember that the dates of the last contact with Mariner 6 and 7 > are apparently not available. I knew that there had been solar conjunctions > observed in spring 1970, but how long again the probes were heard was not > clear. I have finally found the information in the 3rd volume of the > technical memo JPL-TM-33-474 "Tracking and data system support for the > Mariner Mars 1969 mission. Volume 3: Extended operations mission" ( > http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19710026683) > > the extended mission was funded up to 30 December 1970, and it appears that > telemetry was last received from both spacecraft on DOY355 (21 December > 1970). Both were to be placed "in final state" on 23,29,30 December. > Note also on page 70 this sentence: "Week of December 28, Mariner 7, pass > 643: Downlink signal was lost from the spacecraft because the spacecraft > lost attitude control and began tumbling (attitude control gas supply > apparently was depleted)." > _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Sun Sep 18 11:06:42 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 11:06:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] LK Television Camera Report In-Reply-To: <8CE43D4D6BD93AA-1864-27E02@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE43D4D6BD93AA-1864-27E02@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE442BB578B9E0-18A8-2EBD5@webmail-m004.sysops.aol.com> Hello, Fellow FPSpacers! I'm still trying to obtain or access a copy of this report: ???????? ?.?., "? ?????????? ????????????? ?????????? ??? ?????? ???????? ?? ????" It was presented to the Northwest Interregional Astronautics Federation of the Russian Federation on May 27, 2004. I've tried contacting the Chairman, but the address is no longer valid. If anyone knows the correct address for the Northwest Interregional Astronautics Federation of the Russian Federation, or (better yet) knows where I can find a copy of this report, or any other report dealing with the television camera used on the Lunniy Korabl ... I would be most grateful! Best, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kgottschalk at uwc.ac.za Sun Sep 18 11:20:25 2011 From: kgottschalk at uwc.ac.za (Keith Gottschalk) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 17:20:25 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] quick query: NASA HQ Message-ID: <4E762859020000A60001230C@uwc.ac.za> Dear Friends, way back in 1996 I visited the souvenir shop at NASA HQ in Washington DC. With all the post-2001 security tightening-ups, is that souvenir shop still there? As you enter the foyer, it was on the right-hand side. thanks, Keith. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- All Email originating from UWC is covered by disclaimer http://www.uwc.ac.za/emaildisclaimer From dsfportree at hotmail.com Sun Sep 18 16:19:12 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 14:19:12 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Mariner 69: a small mystery (finally) solved In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Paolo: Funny how these circular things happen! Glad my blog could help to solve this ancient mystery. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 09:57:47 +0200 Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Mariner 69: a small mystery (finally) solved From: pao.ulivi at gmail.com To: dsfportree at hotmail.com CC: fpspace at friends-partners.org David I must confess that I discovered the very existence of this technical memo from that guy's post on your blog. I agree with your answer: Mariner 6 had aphelion at 1.75 AU, Mariner 7 at 1.69. While a strict definition of the extent of the asteroid belt is debatable, the density of objects does not pick up until 2.1 AU. see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kirkwood_Gaps.svg Paolo On Sun, Sep 18, 2011 at 2:59 AM, David Portree wrote: Paolo: I had someone remark on my blog a week or so ago that Mariner 6 and 7 transmitted for long enough to enter the Main Belt. Based on the aphelion distance he provided, this was not correct. What's your take on this question? David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:16:51 +0200 From: pao.ulivi at gmail.com To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: [FPSPACE] Mariner 69: a small mystery (finally) solved I wanted to share something I only recently found that finally solves what for me had always been a small mystery. you may remember that the dates of the last contact with Mariner 6 and 7 are apparently not available. I knew that there had been solar conjunctions observed in spring 1970, but how long again the probes were heard was not clear. I have finally found the information in the 3rd volume of the technical memo JPL-TM-33-474 "Tracking and data system support for the Mariner Mars 1969 mission. Volume 3: Extended operations mission" (http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19710026683) the extended mission was funded up to 30 December 1970, and it appears that telemetry was last received from both spacecraft on DOY355 (21 December 1970). Both were to be placed "in final state" on 23,29,30 December. Note also on page 70 this sentence: "Week of December 28, Mariner 7, pass 643: Downlink signal was lost from the spacecraft because the spacecraft lost attitude control and began tumbling (attitude control gas supply apparently was depleted)." _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Sun Sep 18 16:25:45 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 14:25:45 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] NASA Announces Design for New Deep Space Exploration System In-Reply-To: <20110918023221.127320@gmx.net> References: <4E71F9EB.4010001@stny.rr.com>, , <6.2.3.4.2.20110915144636.03391e58@pop3.ntlworld.com>, <20110918023221.127320@gmx.net> Message-ID: I don't think NASA has fostered private ventures except under duress, as part of its well-known pork distribution function, and I think that what seems like "undermining" is actually a recognition of reality (which is refreshing), since the private ventures have yet to prove themselves and are a long way from reliable heavy-lift (despite a continuous drumbeat of claims). Plus, NASA needs to develop heavy-lift to keep the Shuttle work-force employed to some degree or other (it's that pork distribution function again). David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 04:32:21 +0200 > From: Nels.Anderson at gmx.net > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] NASA Announces Design for New Deep Space Exploration System > > Since the core of SLS is required to make orbit all by itself, I wonder whether the RS-68's relatively low specific impulse and thrust-to-weight ratio relative to the RS-25 might be significant factors as well. On a standard first stage which jettisoned well before reaching orbit it would matter much less. > > -------- Original-Nachricht -------- > > Datum: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 14:48:05 +0100 > > Von: David M Harland > > An: Christopher Gorski , "David R. Woods" , fpspace at friends-partners.org > > Betreff: Re: [FPSPACE] NASA Announces Design for New Deep Space Exploration System > > > At 14:37 15/09/2011, Christopher Gorski wrote: > > >Anybody else curious why they've stuck with RS-25s? I thought they > > >were terribly expensive because they were designed for 7.5 hours > > >service and fifty-something restarts. Thought the RS-68 was > > >supposed to be a good high-thrust disposable alternative...? > > > > > > The story I heard was that 200 mods would be required to man-rate the > > RS-68. Of course, what they should really do is limit the > > heavy-lifter to unmanned payloads and send crews up in one of these > > commercial spacecraft, but having fostered such private ventures NASA > > seems determined to undermine them. > > > > dmh > > > > > > >or does "D/E" now mean a cheaper version? > > > > > >I'd guess politics, but I think they're both from Pratt & Whitney / > > >Rocketdyne... > > > > > >--me > > > > > > > > >On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 9:13 AM, David R. Woods > > ><drwoods at stny.rr.com> wrote: > > >NASA is ready to move forward with the development of the Space > > >Launch System -- an advanced heavy-lift launch vehicle that will > > >provide an entirely new national capability for human exploration > > >beyond Earth's orbit. The Space Launch System will give the nation a > > >safe, affordable and sustainable means of reaching beyond our > > >current limits and opening up new discoveries from the unique > > >vantage point of space. > > > > > >The Space Launch System, or SLS, will be designed to carry the Orion > > >Multi-Purpose Crew Vehicle, as well as important cargo, equipment > > >and science experiments to Earth's orbit and destinations beyond. > > >Additionally, the SLS will serve as a back up for commercial and > > >international partner transportation services to the International > > >Space Station. > > > > > >"This launch system will create good-paying American jobs, ensure > > >continued U.S. leadership in space, and inspire millions around the > > >world," NASA Administrator Charles Bolden said. "President Obama > > >challenged us to be bold and dream big, and that's exactly what we > > >are doing at NASA. While I was proud to fly on the space shuttle, > > >tomorrow's explorers will now dream of one day walking on Mars." > > > > > >The SLS rocket will incorporate technological investments from the > > >Space Shuttle Program and the Constellation Program in order to take > > >advantage of proven hardware and cutting-edge tooling and > > >manufacturing technology that will significantly reduce development > > >and operations costs. It will use a liquid hydrogen and liquid > > >oxygen propulsion system, which will include the RS-25D/E from the > > >Space Shuttle Program for the core stage and the J-2X engine for the > > >upper stage. SLS will also use solid rocket boosters for the initial > > >development flights, while follow-on boosters will be competed based > > >on performance requirements and affordability considerations. The > > >SLS will have an initial lift capacity of 70 metric tons. That's > > >more than 154,000 pounds, or 77 tons, roughly the weight of 40 sport > > >utility vehicles. The lift capacity will be evolvable to 130 metric > > >tons -- more than 286,000 pounds, or 143 tons -- enough to lift 75 > > >SUVs. The first developmental flight, or mission, is targeted for > > >the end of 2017. > > > > > >This specific architecture was selected, largely because it utilizes > > >an evolvable development approach, which allows NASA to address > > >high-cost development activities early on in the program and take > > >advantage of higher buying power before inflation erodes the > > >available funding of a fixed budget. This architecture also enables > > >NASA to leverage existing capabilities and lower development costs > > >by using liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen for both the core and > > >upper stages. Additionally, this architecture provides a modular > > >launch vehicle that can be configured for specific mission needs > > >using a variation of common elements. NASA may not need to lift 130 > > >metric tons for each mission and the flexibility of this modular > > >architecture allows the agency to use different core stage, upper > > >stage, and first-stage booster combinations to achieve the most > > >efficient launch vehicle for the desired mission. > > > > > >"NASA has been making steady progress toward realizing the > > >president's goal of deep space exploration, while doing so in a more > > >affordable way," NASA Deputy Administrator Lori Garver said. "We > > >have been driving down the costs on the Space Launch System and > > >Orion contracts by adopting new ways of doing business and project > > >hundreds of millions of dollars of savings each year." > > > > > >The Space Launch System will be NASA's first exploration-class > > >vehicle since the Saturn V took American astronauts to the moon over > > >40 years ago. With its superior lift capability, the SLS will expand > > >our reach in the solar system and allow us to explore cis-lunar > > >space, near-Earth asteroids, Mars and its moons and beyond. We will > > >learn more about how the solar system formed, where Earth's water > > >and organics originated and how life might be sustained in places > > >far from our Earth's atmosphere and expand the boundaries of human > > >exploration. These discoveries will change the way we understand > > >ourselves, our planet, and its place in the universe. > > > > > >http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/systems/sls/sls1.html > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >FPSPACE mailing list > > >FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > > >http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >FPSPACE mailing list > > >FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > > >http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > -- > NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zur?ck-Garantie! > Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dstdba at post4.tele.dk Sun Sep 18 20:50:04 2011 From: dstdba at post4.tele.dk (Jens Kieffer-Olsen) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 02:50:04 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] ISS time-lapse video Message-ID: <004c01cc7666$13c2d860$3b488920$@tele.dk> Nice job :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74mhQyuyELQ -- Jens Kieffer-Olsen Slagelse, Denmark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chenard at euroconsult-ec.com Sun Sep 18 21:44:58 2011 From: chenard at euroconsult-ec.com (Stephane Chenard) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 10:44:58 +0900 Subject: [FPSPACE] NGIA did in-orbit servicing ?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a bit dated, but intriguing, and no one seems to have really commented on it. On August 8, Space News ran a "Profile" interview with Tom Wilson, general manager of ATK Spacecraft Systems and Services. Excerpt: (Question) Has the U.S. government shown any interest in your satellite life extension service ? (Wilson) (snip) We are in discussions at the policy level for how to actually employ a commercial business model for satellite servicing with a government customer. The National Geospatial Intelligence Agency has successfully done it with electro-optical imagery, but the government hasn't figured out how to do that in other segments. NGIA (or perhaps he meant NRO) successfully serviced an electro-optical satellite in orbit ? And what could that be about ? Surely not Hubble, surely not Orbital Express. Did the Shuttle refuel a KH-11 after all ? From gunter.krebs at skyrocket.de Mon Sep 19 04:50:09 2011 From: gunter.krebs at skyrocket.de (Gunter Krebs) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 10:50:09 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] NGIA did in-orbit servicing ?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2011/9/19 Stephane Chenard > > NGIA (or perhaps he meant NRO) successfully serviced an electro-optical > satellite in orbit ? And what could that be about ? Surely not Hubble, > surely not Orbital Express. Did the Shuttle refuel a KH-11 after all ? > Did the Shuttle refuel a KH-11 after all ? Certainly not. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at satcom.freeserve.co.uk Mon Sep 19 05:02:22 2011 From: john at satcom.freeserve.co.uk (Satcom) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 10:02:22 +0100 Subject: [FPSPACE] NGIA did in-orbit servicing ?? References: Message-ID: <007201cc76aa$d8345d10$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> >The National Geospatial Intelligence Agency has > successfully done it with electro-optical imagery, but the government > hasn't > figured out how to do that in other segments. Its not very clear what that statement is actually infering....but ... DSP and Mitex perhaps as monitored by the satellite community a couple of years ago ? http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0901/14dsp23/ Regards John http://satcom.website.orange.co.uk/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephane Chenard" To: Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 2:44 AM Subject: [FPSPACE] NGIA did in-orbit servicing ?? > > This is a bit dated, but intriguing, and no one seems to have really > commented on it. On August 8, Space News ran a "Profile" interview with > Tom > Wilson, general manager of ATK Spacecraft Systems and Services. Excerpt: > > (Question) Has the U.S. government shown any interest in your satellite > life > extension service ? > > (Wilson) (snip) We are in discussions at the policy level for how to > actually employ a commercial business model for satellite servicing with a > government customer. The National Geospatial Intelligence Agency has > successfully done it with electro-optical imagery, but the government > hasn't > figured out how to do that in other segments. > > NGIA (or perhaps he meant NRO) successfully serviced an electro-optical > satellite in orbit ? And what could that be about ? Surely not Hubble, > surely not Orbital Express. Did the Shuttle refuel a KH-11 after all ? > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > From kgottschalk at uwc.ac.za Mon Sep 19 05:37:12 2011 From: kgottschalk at uwc.ac.za (Keith Gottschalk) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 11:37:12 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] NGIA did in-orbit servicing ?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E772968020000A6000123CC@uwc.ac.za> Isn't this part of the job description of the X-37B? - Keith >>> On 2011/09/19 at 10:50 AM, in message , Gunter Krebs wrote: 2011/9/19 Stephane Chenard NGIA (or perhaps he meant NRO) successfully serviced an electro-optical satellite in orbit ? And what could that be about ? Surely not Hubble, surely not Orbital Express. Did the Shuttle refuel a KH-11 after all ? Did the Shuttle refuel a KH-11 after all ? Certainly not. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- All Email originating from UWC is covered by disclaimer http://www.uwc.ac.za/emaildisclaimer From ljk4 at msn.com Mon Sep 19 09:03:50 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES ) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 13:03:50 +0000 Subject: [FPSPACE] Fwd: the physics arXiv blog Message-ID: ---------- Sent from AT&T Wireless using Windows Live Hotmail -----Original Message----- From: Technology Review Feed - arXiv blog Sent: 9/19/2011 12:30:49 PM To: ljk4 at msn.com Subject: the physics arXiv blog the physics arXiv blog [http://gmodules.com/ig/images/plus_google.gif] ________________________________ GPS Satellites Could Solve Flyby Anomaly Posted: 18 Sep 2011 09:10 PM PDT Spacecraft flying past Earth undergo a puzzling change in speed and nobody knows why. The next generation of navigation satellites could help, say scientists [http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/files/71025/Flyby%20Galileo.png] Now that the Pioneer anomaly has been more or less laid to rest, the outstanding space-based puzzle of the moment is the flyby anomaly. This is how the arXiv Blog described the phenomena back in 2008: "On 8 December 1990, something strange happened to the Galileo spacecraft as it flew past Earth on its way to Jupiter. As the mission team watched, the spacecraft's speed suddenly jumped by 4 mm per second. Nobody took much notice ??? a few mm/s is neither here or there to mission planners. Then on 23 January 1998, the same thing happened to NASA's Near spacecraft as it swung past Earth. This time its speed jumped by 13 mm/s. The following year, Cassini's speed was boosted by 0.11mm/s during its Earth fly-by. And people finally began to ask questions when the Rosetta spacecraft's speed also jumped by 2 mm/s during its 2005 close approach." Nobody knows what causes these strange hiccups in spacecraft speed but there is no shortage of theories, some of which we've discussed here and here. If scientists are ever to get to the root of this phenomenon, they need to have a way of measuring it repeatedly, unambiguously and in detail. But flyby's are few and far between. And even when they do occur, NASA's Deep Space Network which monitors spacecraft from the ground is not designed to study the effect in detail. The most serious problem is that the network cannot follow spacecraft when they are very close to Earth. This results in a gap in communications during a flyby lasting a few hours, just when the most interesting effect is happening. As a result, the fly-by anomaly has never been caught in flagrante. Instead, it arises as the difference between the observed and expected velocity after a flyby. Today, Orfeu Bertolami at the University of Porto in Portugal and a few buddies suggest a way out of this conundrum. They say the next generation of global navigation satellite systems ought to be able to help. These should be capable of detecting the expected change in speed of just a few millimetres per second. These guys calculate that a microsatellite fitted with a device capable of receiving signals from any of the satellite navigation systems would cost less than $15 million. And it might be considerably less if the necessary gear was bolted onto an existing spacecraft intended for a flyby or the kind of highly elliptical orbit likely to demonstrate the anomaly . That's chickenfeed to most space agencies and that means we're likely to see an attempt to measure the phenomenon in the not too distant futur.. The agency most likely to take the bait is the European Space Agency which is about to deploy a GPS rival constellation called Galileo. If it needs a scientific mission to raise the profile of Galileo and show off its potential, it need look no further. Ref: arxiv.org/abs/1109.2779: Probing The Flyby Anomaly With The Galileo Constellation [http://ads.pheedo.com/img.phdo?s=8b06a070b45610a461957ac71f0ea7f5&p=1] [http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/arxivblog/GmoU?d=yIl2AUoC8zA] [http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/arxivblog/GmoU?i=T-cciuL33KE:36wmTQ69Jyk:V_sGLiPBpWU] [http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/arxivblog/GmoU?i=T-cciuL33KE:36wmTQ69Jyk:F7zBnMyn0Lo] [http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/arxivblog/GmoU?i=T-cciuL33KE:36wmTQ69Jyk:gIN9vFwOqvQ] [http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/arxivblog/GmoU?d=l6gmwiTKsz0] [http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/arxivblog/GmoU?d=qj6IDK7rITs] [http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/arxivblog/GmoU?d=dnMXMwOfBR0] You are subscribed to email updates from Technology Review Feed - arXiv blog To stop receiving these emails, you may unsubscribe now. Email delivery powered by Google Google Inc., 20 West Kinzie, Chicago IL USA 60610 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jameseoberg at comcast.net Mon Sep 19 12:33:32 2011 From: jameseoberg at comcast.net (James E Oberg) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 11:33:32 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] What does this photo show in Progress debris search article? Message-ID: <5E83BD95F6444A1D861FE9B4BC15D772@ownerfbf08f40c> A curious image was posted with a TASS story today aboutg the Progress crash -- it's got to be 'stock footage' and such file photos are often stuffed into current news stories by Russian news agencies. It shows a nearly-intact upper stage lying in shallow water. 16:31 19/09/2011 // http://www.itar-tass.com/c19/228658.html ???????? ?-12?" ?? ???????? ?? ???????????????? ??????? ??? 271x401, 65kb // ???? www.kp.ru http://www.itar-tass.com/data/Newses/MainPhoto/228658.JPEG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert at collectspace.com Mon Sep 19 13:15:39 2011 From: robert at collectspace.com (Robert Pearlman) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 12:15:39 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] What does this photo show in Progress debris search article? In-Reply-To: <5E83BD95F6444A1D861FE9B4BC15D772@ownerfbf08f40c> References: <5E83BD95F6444A1D861FE9B4BC15D772@ownerfbf08f40c> Message-ID: Jim, The photo is stock; it was similarly generically used in this May 2009 article: http://www.mosnews.com/society/2009/05/08/1550/ ...and was credited to: www.seu.ru ? but the trail grows cold there. -- Robert Pearlman, Editor collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts http://www.collectspace.com/ Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE On Sep 19, 2011, at 11:33 AM, James E Oberg wrote: > > > A curious image was posted with a TASS story today aboutg the Progress crash -- it's got to be 'stock footage' and such file photos are often stuffed into current news stories by Russian news agencies. > > It shows a nearly-intact upper stage lying in shallow water. > > > 16:31 19/09/2011 // http://www.itar-tass.com/c19/228658.html > ???????? ?-12?" ?? ???????? ?? ???????????????? ??????? ??? > > > 271x401, 65kb // ???? www.kp.ru > > > http://www.itar-tass.com/data/Newses/MainPhoto/228658.JPEG > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jameseoberg at comcast.net Mon Sep 19 13:36:00 2011 From: jameseoberg at comcast.net (James E Oberg) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 12:36:00 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] What does this photo show in Progress debris search article? References: <5E83BD95F6444A1D861FE9B4BC15D772@ownerfbf08f40c> Message-ID: <6885B7692B454BB59F1EBA368233E1D3@ownerfbf08f40c> You've solved it! Thanks! It could be a stage dropped over Altay, or from Plesetsk, anywhere in past decades. But NOT associated with the Progress crash. ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Pearlman To: FPSPACE Partners FPSPACE Cc: James E Oberg Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] What does this photo show in Progress debris search article? Jim, The photo is stock; it was similarly generically used in this May 2009 article: http://www.mosnews.com/society/2009/05/08/1550/ ...and was credited to: www.seu.ru ? but the trail grows cold there. -- Robert Pearlman, Editor collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts http://www.collectspace.com/ Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE On Sep 19, 2011, at 11:33 AM, James E Oberg wrote: A curious image was posted with a TASS story today aboutg the Progress crash -- it's got to be 'stock footage' and such file photos are often stuffed into current news stories by Russian news agencies. It shows a nearly-intact upper stage lying in shallow water. 16:31 19/09/2011 // http://www.itar-tass.com/c19/228658.html ???????? ?-12?" ?? ???????? ?? ???????????????? ??????? ??? 271x401, 65kb // ???? www.kp.ru http://www.itar-tass.com/data/Newses/MainPhoto/228658.JPEG _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomsona at flash.net Mon Sep 19 22:18:04 2011 From: thomsona at flash.net (Allen Thomson) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 19:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Baykonur question Message-ID: <1316485084.75089.YahooMailClassic@web80202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> What are the 15-meter spherical tanks on either side of 46.014 N, 63.299 E? ??? From cpvick at globalsecurity.org Tue Sep 20 13:20:47 2011 From: cpvick at globalsecurity.org (Charles Vick) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 13:20:47 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] this is now on line Message-ID: <000001cc77b9$a31e0350$e95a09f0$@globalsecurity.org> http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/library/report/2011/saturn-v-sls.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Tue Sep 20 15:42:58 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Current Status of Vyacheslav Filin? Message-ID: <8CE45E4A21D3274-21A0-4E5C7@webmail-m072.sysops.aol.com> FPSpacers, What is the current status of Vyacheslav Filin? I see that he was fired over a Proton related failure in 2010, but RSC Energia still shows him as Vice President and First Deputy General Designer. Thanks in advance, David L. 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URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Wed Sep 21 12:35:40 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 12:35:40 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] =?windows-1252?q?FW=3A_=5BNew_post=5D_Wernher=A0von=A0B?= =?windows-1252?q?raun=A0and=A0Early=A0Concepts=A0for=A0Missions=A0to=A0th?= =?windows-1252?q?e=A0Moon=A0and=A0Mars?= In-Reply-To: <7858997.2343.0@wordpress.com> References: <7858997.2343.0@wordpress.com> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 12:37:36 +0000 To: ljk4 at msn.com From: no-reply at wordpress.com Subject: [New post] Wernher von Braun and Early Concepts for Missions to the Moon and Mars WordPress.com Wernher von Braun and Early Concepts for Missions to the Moon and Mars launiusr | September 21, 2011 at 12:37 pm | Tags: 1960s, Mars, mining, Moon, Moon race, NASA, U.S. Civil Space, Wernher von Braun | Categories: History, Science | URL: http://wp.me/pwYu1-BN Cover of Collier?s magazine, April 30, 1954. The ultimate objective for the first set of pioneers was a human expedition to Mars, the arrival of which is depicted in this painting by Chesley Bonestell. It helped to energize public excitement for the possibility of a wondrous future in space. In the middle part of the twentieth century, as spaceflight appeared on the verge of reality, several individuals began speculating on how to fly to the Moon and Mars. No one was more eloquent in this effort than German engineer Wernher von Braun, the godfather of the V-2 rocket and a postwar immigrant to theUnited States with a contingent of associates who had built this first ballistic missile in human history. In essence, von Braun envisioned an expedition much like that conducted by Lewis and Clarke on the American frontier. In a 1952 plan, outlined in Collier?s magazine, von Braun described a fifty-person expedition on a six-week reconnaissance of the Moon. Technicians in space suits, von Braun proposed, would assemble three very large spaceships in the vicinity of an orbiting space station. Each spaceship would measure 160 feet in length and, fully fueled, weigh more than 4,000 tons. Two of the ships would carry sufficient fuel to land on the Moon and return to the Earth orbiting station. The third would carry a 75-foot-long cargo container to the lunar landing zone. Once on the lunar surface, astronauts would unload supplies from the cargo container using large construction cranes. The empty cargo container would removed from the landing craft and split in half to create two ready-to-use Quonset huts for the expedition?s base camp. Wernher von Braun in the 1950s. Von Braun proposed that astronauts set up their base camp in a crevice beneath a towering mountain range, so as to protect the expedition from cosmic radiation. To do this, astronauts would need to tow their equipment from the landing site to the base camp using three pressurized tractors. ?The principal aim of our expedition during this first lunar exploration will be strictly scientific,? von Braun and astronomer Fred Whipple promised, by which they meant that military objectives would not dominate the mission. (At the time he outlined his proposal, von Braun designed missiles for the U.S. Army.) Expedition leaders would probe the origins of the Moon, conduct experiments, and search for raw materials. They would dispatch ten persons on a ten-day round trip excursion to Crater Harpalus, 250 miles away, proceeding in a convoy of tractors and trailers. Plans called for the expeditionary corps to remain on the Moon for forty-two days. Artist?s conception of lunar mining, after 2020, artwork by Pat Rawlings. Many believe that the resource rich Moon may one day sustain human efforts to remain in space indefinitely. Eventually, most thinkers on spaceflight believe that the effort must be self-sustaining and mining Helium-3 (He-3) on the Moon has been advanced by many, especially Apollo 17 astronaut Harrison Schmidt, as a commodity that could pay for itself many times over. It is a light, non-radioactive isotope of helium with two protons and one neutron sought after for use in nuclear fusion research. Virtually unknown on Earth, it is thought to be embedded in the upper layer of the lunar regolith by solar wind bombardment over billions of years. Many conceptions of lunar exploitation involve mining this or other rare materials. In 1948, Wernher von Braun also developed specifications for a Mars expedition which he hoped to present in a science fiction novel. The novel was never published in his lifetime, but the technical plans were. In von Braun?s view, the first expedition would travel to Mars in a flotilla consisting of ten spaceships. Once in orbit around Mars, von Braun recommended that the expedition team fly to the surface in three airplane-like spacecraft. The first of the three landing craft would descend to the polar ice cap. Its crew would use skids instead of wheels to stop on the ice, the only surface thought sufficiently smooth for a safe landing. Unloading tractors and supplies, the crew would drive 4,000 miles to the Martian equator, where they would prepare a landing strip for the other two planes. For one of von Braun?s books on the exploration of Mars, Chesley Bonestell painted a famous landscape incorporating the winged space planes and the expeditionary corps surveying a desert-like terrain. Chesley Bonestell's artistic vision of what a Mars landing might look as envisioned in the 1950s. According to von Braun?s plan, the expedition would remain on Mars for 15 months, waiting for the two planets to realign themselves for the return voyage. Removing the wings from their landing craft, ground crews would set the space planes on their tails. The expedition team would gather on board, blast off, rendezvous with the spacecraft in which they had come, and head home. Two conclusions are appropriate. First, those early plans for lunar and Martian missions were ambitious and at some level outrageous. Reflecting on them from the twenty-first century, they seem impossible. Have perspectives really changed to much that these ideas are now impossible when they appeared feasible in an earlier era? Second, I am struck by how the scenarios for missions to the Moon and Mars have evolved over time, but also be the continued desire to undertake them. Add a comment to this post WordPress.com | Thanks for flying with WordPress! Manage Subscriptions | Unsubscribe | Express yourself. Start a blog. Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://subscribe.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomsona at flash.net Wed Sep 21 13:13:21 2011 From: thomsona at flash.net (Allen Thomson) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] =?iso-8859-1?q?FW=3A_=5BNew_post=5D_Wernher=A0von=A0Bra?= =?iso-8859-1?q?un=A0and=A0Early=A0Concepts=A0for=A0Missions=A0to=A0the=A0?= =?iso-8859-1?q?Moon=A0and=A0Mars?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1316625201.19185.YahooMailClassic@web80203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I greatly admire von Braun's vision. But there ought to be some form of Godwin's Law about Helium-3.? Today and for the foreseeable future it's purest snake oil when arguing for lunar activities. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Wed Sep 21 22:37:58 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 22:37:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Kennedy - Khrushchev Lunar Initiative Message-ID: <8CE46E7C6405B46-A64-639B4@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com> Hello FPSpacers, Some possible new revelation regarding the Kennedy - Khrushchev Lunar Initiative: http://www.terradaily.com/news/russia-97h.html Had this actually taken place (which is a BIG "if"), I wonder if we would have made it to the Moon sooner ... or later. Best regards, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Thu Sep 22 06:39:41 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 06:39:41 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] FW: UAZ: Regents' Professor Michael J. Drake, 1946-2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 22:56:01 -0600 Subject: UAZ: Regents' Professor Michael J. Drake, 1946-2011 From: inge.heyer at aas.org To: Inge.Heyer at aas.org THE FOLLOWING RELEASE WAS RECEIVED FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF ARIZONA IN TUCSON AND IS FORWARDED FOR YOUR INFORMATION. (FORWARDING DOES NOT IMPLY ENDORSEMENT BY THE AMERICAN ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY.) Inge Heyer, AAS Deputy Press Officer: inge.heyer at aas.org, +1 808-936-4136. 21 September 2011 Daniel Stolte +1 520-626-4402 stolte at email.arizona.edu REGENTS' PROFESSOR MICHAEL J. DRAKE, 1946-2011 Under Drake's leadership, the UA's Lunar and Planetary Laboratory grew from a small group of geologists and astronomers into an international powerhouse of research into the solar system. Michael J. Drake, Regents' Professor, director of the University of Arizona Lunar and Planetary Laboratory and head of the department of planetary sciences, died Wednesday at The University of Arizona Medical Center-University Campus in Tucson, Ariz. He was 65. Drake, who joined the UA planetary sciences faculty in 1973 and headed LPL and the planetary sciences department since 1994, was the principal investigator of the most ambitious UA project to date, OSIRIS-REx, an $800 million mission designed to retrieve a sample of an asteroid and return it to Earth. OSIRIS-REx is due to launch in 2016. It is the largest grant or contract the UA has ever received. Drake played a key role in a succession of ever more high-profile space projects that garnered international attention for LPL and the University. Those include the Cassini mission to explore Saturn, the Gamma-Ray Spectrometer onboard NASA's Mars Odyssey Orbiter, the HiRISE camera onboard NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter and the Phoenix Mars Lander. Drake also was a Fellow of the American Geophysical Union, the Geochemical Society and the Meteoritical Society, and he was president of the latter two. A native of Bristol, England, Drake graduated with a degree in geology from Victoria University in Manchester, and then he left for a doctoral program in geology from the University of Oregon, graduating in 1972. After a postdoctoral program at the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, Drake moved to, and immediately fell in love with, Arizona. As a young assistant professor, Drake joined a much smaller LPL in 1973. The lab occupied only a part of what is now the Kuiper Space Sciences Building, and most of his colleagues came from astronomy. Planetary sciences did not have the cachet then that it does now. "It was, from my point of view, a strange environment," Drake wrote earlier on LPL's website. "It's like the Tower of Babel; you talk in your own language and your own jargon, and communicating across fields is surprisingly difficult. It took a few years before I think most of us began to understand what motivated the other ones, what we were really saying. I think it helped us to speak in clearer, plain English and minimize the jargon, because we came from such different backgrounds." Regents' Professor Peter Strittmatter, who recently retired as director of the UA's Steward Observatory and head of the UA astronomy department, said Drake used those communication skills to expand LPL and form close relationships with NASA. "Mike thought and spoke clearly so you always knew where he stood on an issue," Strittmatter said. "He was a superb director of LPL, a great leader and a great personal friend. He will be sorely missed by all of us at the University of Arizona and especially those involved in the space sciences." Peter Smith, the principal investigator for the Phoenix Mars Lander mission, said he began working with Drake when Smith was building the camera for the 1997 Mars Pathfinder. He called Drake's handling of the complexities of proposal development "masterful." "We would meet monthly to review progress and plan strategy," Smith said. "Mike always encouraged excellence and made sure that the University was providing full support to our programs. Over the years, as my career progressed through various missions to Mars, he was there when troubles surfaced and a political push was needed," said Smith, who is also part of the OSIRIS-REx mission. "He watched our flight projects from the sidelines; his enthusiasm made it clear that he wished for a more direct involvement. After winning the project of his dreams, Mike will continue to inspire and lead through the legacy of his accomplishments." Edgar J. McCullough, retired professor and head of the UA geosciences department and dean of the College of Science, said he and Drake became friends in the early 1970s when they would go on weeklong backpacking excursions around the West. "When he was in planetary sciences and I was head of the geosciences department, we set up a microprobe laboratory with funding from both departments. It was the first big piece of diagnostic equipment here at a time when geoscience was becoming more of an analytical science," McCullough said. "He was the kind of faculty member you wanted because he was also strong on teaching, especially undergraduates." McCullough said Drake helped develop promotion and tenure policies for the college and was instrumental in establishing a joint position between the colleges of science and education to create science education programs. Drake also led a major undergraduate teaching effort in planetary sciences, even though the department was created as a graduate program. Joaquin Ruiz, executive dean of the Colleges of Letters, Arts and Science, said: "Mike was a distinguished scholar, an accomplished administrator and a good friend. His students loved him for his energy, smarts and care. He was able to run the department of planetary sciences incredibly smoothly at the same time as he was writing significant papers about the early evolution of the Earth and solar system and still have time to successfully compete for OSIRIS-REx." Timothy Swindle, the assistant director at LPL, summed it up, saying, "Not only was he a world-class scientist, but he was a tireless advocate for the Lunar and Planetary Laboratory and all the people who have worked here. Personally, he was a friend and mentor for me, and for many others, and we will miss him deeply." ##### This story and photos are online at: http://www.uanews.org/node/42011 . The University of Arizona Lunar and Planetary Laboratory: http://www.lpl.arizona.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ If you do not wish to receive press releases that are forwarded to the news media by the American Astronomical Society, please unsubscribe by replying accordingly to any incoming press release, or send e-mail to inge.heyer at aas.org. Requests for referrals to experts on astronomy and space science should be sent to the same address. Inge Heyer, AAS Deputy Press Officer, +1 808-936-4136. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geertsassen at gmail.com Thu Sep 22 07:52:09 2011 From: geertsassen at gmail.com (Geert Sassen) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 13:52:09 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Kennedy - Khrushchev Lunar Initiative In-Reply-To: <8CE46E7C6405B46-A64-639B4@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE46E7C6405B46-A64-639B4@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: It's certainly a very interesting article, David, but I don't think it would have worked, and IF it did, I don't think it would have taken us to the moon.. In the first place, any such cooperation would have involved exchanging information on their rocket-programs, which would have been unacceptable to the military on both sides. That alone would almost certainly have been the end of any such attempts, but apart from that, the industry wouldn't have been happy with it either, it could cause them to loose jobs, contracts, and money.. However, supposing they somehow managed to overcome all these huge obstacles, then what could they have done, what would such a project have looked like? Certainly not a Apollo-type mission, any single-launch scenario would be out of the question, as it would be either an 'American' or a 'Soviet' rocket and no-one would accept that. So, you would almost certainly end up with at least a dual launch scenario and then probably an earth-orbit rendez-vous, an US-lander with a Soviet mothership or vice versa. Either that, or you would get some dual Apollo-style mission with a lunar surface rendez-vous (but then, who would be landing first? And most of all, it would only increase costs...). Whatever scenario would be selected, it would be more complicated than Apollo/N1L3, and it would take more time and costs would rise and rise.. With hardly any 'propaganda' value and rapidly rising costs, almost certainly sooner or later one or both partners would pull the plug out of the whole thing.. It might have resulted in some US-SU spacestation in LEO (as a 'stepping stone' to the moon) but I guess nobody would ever have reached the moon, and probably by now we would be in exactly the same situation as we are now however without the memory of Apollo.. Regards, Geert. On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 4:37 AM, wrote: > Hello FPSpacers, > Some possible new revelation regarding the Kennedy - Khrushchev Lunar > Initiative: > http://www.terradaily.com/news/russia-97h.html > Had this actually taken place (which is a BIG "if"), I wonder if we would > have made it to the Moon sooner ... or later. > Best regards, > David L. Rickman > > > > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > -- Geert Sassen http://www.facebook.com/geert.sassen From davidlrickman at aol.com Thu Sep 22 19:26:17 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 19:26:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Tiangong Animation Message-ID: <8CE479629854307-A64-700AD@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com> ?? FPSpacers? There is well done series of three animations of the Tiangong from launch to integration as a station: http://news.sina.com.cn/z/tiangong2011/3D/index.shtml It is interesting that the Tiangong is launched with the wide-end at the top. ??, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cpvick at globalsecurity.org Thu Sep 22 21:44:40 2011 From: cpvick at globalsecurity.org (Charles Vick) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 21:44:40 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Kennedy - Khrushchev Lunar Initiative In-Reply-To: <8CE46E7C6405B46-A64-639B4@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE46E7C6405B46-A64-639B4@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <001601cc7992$5c6b1710$15414530$@globalsecurity.org> I know Dr. Arnold Frutkin with have something very different to say about this that would be at variance to this based on the interview I had with him years ago on this and much more From: fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org [mailto:fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org] On Behalf Of davidlrickman at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:38 PM To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: [FPSPACE] Kennedy - Khrushchev Lunar Initiative Hello FPSpacers, Some possible new revelation regarding the Kennedy - Khrushchev Lunar Initiative: http://www.terradaily.com/news/russia-97h.html Had this actually taken place (which is a BIG "if"), I wonder if we would have made it to the Moon sooner ... or later. Best regards, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Nels.Anderson at gmx.net Fri Sep 23 01:35:42 2011 From: Nels.Anderson at gmx.net (Nels Anderson) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 07:35:42 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] China Space Museum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110923053542.35050@gmx.net> Has anyone managed a visit to the museum attached to the Chinese Academy for Launch Vehicle Technology in the Fengtai district of south Beijing? I've heard it's possible for non-Chinese citizens to visit with advanced approval. On a past trip to Beijing, I showed up at the gate and tried, without any luck, to talk my way in. -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de From svengrahn at bahnhof.se Fri Sep 23 02:05:26 2011 From: svengrahn at bahnhof.se (Sven Grahn) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:05:26 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] China Space Museum In-Reply-To: <20110923053542.35050@gmx.net> References: <20110923053542.35050@gmx.net> Message-ID: <86210975-F0FC-4FD3-BDC3-5B5219F70881@bahnhof.se> I was there in 2008. I have some pix. Will try to put on my web site Sven Skickat fr?n min iPhone Sven Grahn R?ttviksv?gen 44 192 71 Sollentuna Sweden Mobile: +46 70 3443844 svengrahn at Bahnhof.se www.svengrahn.pp.se Skype sven.grahn1 23 sep 2011 kl. 07:35 skrev "Nels Anderson" : > Has anyone managed a visit to the museum attached to the Chinese Academy for Launch Vehicle Technology in the Fengtai district of south Beijing? > > I've heard it's possible for non-Chinese citizens to visit with advanced approval. On a past trip to Beijing, I showed up at the gate and tried, without any luck, to talk my way in. > -- > Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir > belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace From cdomashnev at acm.org Fri Sep 23 04:22:10 2011 From: cdomashnev at acm.org (Constantine Domashnev) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 04:22:10 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Kennedy - Khrushchev Lunar Initiative Message-ID: <63A0AE7967A7410CB5D6A79671B091F5@Tosha> http://www.terradaily.com/news/russia-97h.html : [Sergei Khrushchev to SpaceCast] "While the Premiere had agreed with Russian military leaders that said any joint Moon flight would provide an opportunity for the U.S. military to learn more about Russian rocket and missile programs, he now thought that it might be possible to learn more from the technology of the Americans." The Dr. Logsdon?s version ("John F. Kennedy and the Race to the Moon", page 192) of the/a Sergey's explanation for the possible shift in Nikita Khrushchev's thinking: ?in 1963 [in contrast to 1961], "we had a sufficient number of the R-16 missile, and from the combined work the Americans could learn about our strength and not our weakness."? KD From Nels.Anderson at gmx.net Fri Sep 23 05:44:57 2011 From: Nels.Anderson at gmx.net (Nels Anderson) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 11:44:57 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] China Space Museum In-Reply-To: <86210975-F0FC-4FD3-BDC3-5B5219F70881@bahnhof.se> References: <20110923053542.35050@gmx.net> <86210975-F0FC-4FD3-BDC3-5B5219F70881@bahnhof.se> Message-ID: <20110923094457.326400@gmx.net> Great! I look forward to the pictures. How did you get into the museum? -------- Original-Nachricht -------- > Datum: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:05:26 +0200 > Von: Sven Grahn > An: Nels Anderson > CC: "fpspace at www.friends-partners.org" > Betreff: Re: [FPSPACE] China Space Museum > I was there in 2008. I have some pix. Will try to put on my web site > > Sven > > Skickat fr?n min iPhone > > Sven Grahn > R?ttviksv?gen 44 > 192 71 Sollentuna > Sweden > Mobile: +46 70 3443844 > svengrahn at Bahnhof.se > www.svengrahn.pp.se > Skype sven.grahn1 > > > 23 sep 2011 kl. 07:35 skrev "Nels Anderson" : > > > Has anyone managed a visit to the museum attached to the Chinese Academy > for Launch Vehicle Technology in the Fengtai district of south Beijing? > > > > I've heard it's possible for non-Chinese citizens to visit with advanced > approval. On a past trip to Beijing, I showed up at the gate and tried, > without any luck, to talk my way in. > > -- > > Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir > > belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de > > _______________________________________________ > > FPSPACE mailing list > > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de From svengrahn at bahnhof.se Fri Sep 23 11:37:12 2011 From: svengrahn at bahnhof.se (Sven Grahn) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 17:37:12 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] China Space Museum In-Reply-To: <20110923094457.326400@gmx.net> References: <20110923053542.35050@gmx.net> <86210975-F0FC-4FD3-BDC3-5B5219F70881@bahnhof.se> <20110923094457.326400@gmx.net> Message-ID: I was in a Swedish delegation visiting CAST, CLTC and CALT. We also got to see the CZ-2F being checked out before transport to the launch site. Sven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nels Anderson" To: "Sven Grahn" Cc: Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] China Space Museum > Great! I look forward to the pictures. > > How did you get into the museum? > > -------- Original-Nachricht -------- >> Datum: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:05:26 +0200 >> Von: Sven Grahn >> An: Nels Anderson >> CC: "fpspace at www.friends-partners.org" >> Betreff: Re: [FPSPACE] China Space Museum > >> I was there in 2008. I have some pix. Will try to put on my web site >> >> Sven >> >> Skickat fr?n min iPhone >> >> Sven Grahn >> R?ttviksv?gen 44 >> 192 71 Sollentuna >> Sweden >> Mobile: +46 70 3443844 >> svengrahn at Bahnhof.se >> www.svengrahn.pp.se >> Skype sven.grahn1 >> >> >> 23 sep 2011 kl. 07:35 skrev "Nels Anderson" : >> >> > Has anyone managed a visit to the museum attached to the Chinese >> > Academy >> for Launch Vehicle Technology in the Fengtai district of south Beijing? >> > >> > I've heard it's possible for non-Chinese citizens to visit with >> > advanced >> approval. On a past trip to Beijing, I showed up at the gate and tried, >> without any luck, to talk my way in. >> > -- >> > Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir >> > belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de >> > _______________________________________________ >> > FPSPACE mailing list >> > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >> > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > -- > Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir > belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de > From davidlrickman at aol.com Fri Sep 23 14:42:59 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 14:42:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] "Allen Thompson's Law" of Helium-3 In-Reply-To: <1316625201.19185.YahooMailClassic@web80203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1316625201.19185.YahooMailClassic@web80203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CE4837C03EC448-A64-7C0AD@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com> Simple: "Allen Thompson's Law", which states: "Helium-3 has been so ingrained into lunar and planetary science fiction literature, theater, and even gaming that it is inevitable that any discussion of the need for planetary and/or lunar exploration will lead to the mention of Helium-3 in a relatively short time." Best, David L. rickman -----Original Message----- From: Allen Thomson I greatly admire von Braun's vision. But there ought to be some form of Godwin's Law about Helium-3. Today and for the foreseeable future it's purest snake oil when arguing for lunar activities. _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From morrisjones at hotmail.com Fri Sep 23 18:02:29 2011 From: morrisjones at hotmail.com (Morris Jones) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 22:02:29 +0000 Subject: [FPSPACE] Japanese movie about Hayabusa mission Message-ID: http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/ff20110923r1.html I haven't seen it, and wonder if it will be released outside Japan. It's nice to see such a movie produced for a mass market. Spaceflight needs all the publicity it can get right now. As an Australian, I'm also fond of this mission. The re-entry capsule became the first spacecraft in history to make a controlled landing in Australia. Morris Jones Sydney -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Fri Sep 23 23:52:43 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 23:52:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Tu-16 Lunar Block E Weightlessness Test? Message-ID: <8CE48848C1059CD-A70-810B6@webmail-d029.sysops.aol.com> Hello FPSpacers, Another toughie here: According to KB Yuzhnoye, testing of the Lunniy Korabl Block E included simulated conditions of weightlessness via a Tu-16. Does anybody have a clue as to what variation of a Tu-16 would be used for this type of test? Many Thanks in Advance! David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at satcom.freeserve.co.uk Sat Sep 24 01:40:35 2011 From: john at satcom.freeserve.co.uk (Satcom) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 06:40:35 +0100 Subject: [FPSPACE] UARS down Message-ID: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> Or at least thats what NASA are reporting according to UK news services , although the promised two hours detailed notice never seemed to appear. So , where did it fall. Odds are in the Pacific to the SW of Hawaii , but NASA are still waiting for reports. John From bharwood at earthlink.net Sat Sep 24 01:48:15 2011 From: bharwood at earthlink.net (William Harwood) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 01:48:15 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] UARS down In-Reply-To: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> References: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> Message-ID: <8D1CD132-B2C3-4776-8181-87DA04B10661@earthlink.net> John: NASA is not reporting anything yet, other than they are "working to confirm the re-entry location and time and will provide an update shortly." That was posted at 4:55 GMT. Their update, whenever it shows up, will be posted here: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/uars/index.html Regards, Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Harwood CBS News Space Analyst Kennedy Space Center, FL 321-639-9440 - KSC harwoodb at cbsnews.com http://www.cbsnews.com/network/news/space/home/index.html http://news.cnet.com/space-shot/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sep 24, 2011, at 1:40 AM, Satcom wrote: > Or at least thats what NASA are reporting according to UK news services , although the promised two hours detailed notice never seemed to appear. > > So , where did it fall. > > Odds are in the Pacific to the SW of Hawaii , but NASA are still waiting for reports. > > John > > > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at satcom.freeserve.co.uk Sat Sep 24 01:51:46 2011 From: john at satcom.freeserve.co.uk (Satcom) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 06:51:46 +0100 Subject: [FPSPACE] UARS down References: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <8D1CD132-B2C3-4776-8181-87DA04B10661@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001101cc7a7e$0b945440$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> Thanks Bill , ...yes saw that report. The lack of any hard detail suggests that the re-entry point was rather remote ! .......So no bits on Ebay then :O) John ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Harwood" To: "Satcom" Cc: ; Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2011 6:48 AM Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] UARS down John: NASA is not reporting anything yet, other than they are "working to confirm the re-entry location and time and will provide an update shortly." That was posted at 4:55 GMT. Their update, whenever it shows up, will be posted here: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/uars/index.html Regards, Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Harwood CBS News Space Analyst Kennedy Space Center, FL 321-639-9440 - KSC harwoodb at cbsnews.com http://www.cbsnews.com/network/news/space/home/index.html http://news.cnet.com/space-shot/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sep 24, 2011, at 1:40 AM, Satcom wrote: > Or at least thats what NASA are reporting according to UK news services , > although the promised two hours detailed notice never seemed to appear. > > So , where did it fall. > > Odds are in the Pacific to the SW of Hawaii , but NASA are still waiting > for reports. > > John > > > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace From robert at collectspace.com Sat Sep 24 01:57:05 2011 From: robert at collectspace.com (Robert Pearlman) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 00:57:05 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] UARS down In-Reply-To: <001101cc7a7e$0b945440$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> References: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <8D1CD132-B2C3-4776-8181-87DA04B10661@earthlink.net> <001101cc7a7e$0b945440$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> Message-ID: <3A26AD6D-3FED-47DE-AE72-99F6B535A61D@collectspace.com> NASA says "If debris fell on land (and that's still a BIG if), Canada is most likely area." -- Robert Pearlman, Editor collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts http://www.collectspace.com/ Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE On Sep 24, 2011, at 12:51 AM, Satcom wrote: > Thanks Bill , ...yes saw that report. > The lack of any hard detail suggests that the re-entry point was rather remote ! > .......So no bits on Ebay then :O) > > > John > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Harwood" > To: "Satcom" > Cc: ; > Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2011 6:48 AM > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] UARS down > > > John: > > NASA is not reporting anything yet, other than they are "working to confirm the re-entry location and time and will provide an update shortly." That was posted at 4:55 GMT. Their update, whenever it shows up, will be posted here: > > http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/uars/index.html > > Regards, > > Bill > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > William Harwood > CBS News Space Analyst > Kennedy Space Center, FL > > 321-639-9440 - KSC > harwoodb at cbsnews.com > http://www.cbsnews.com/network/news/space/home/index.html > http://news.cnet.com/space-shot/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > On Sep 24, 2011, at 1:40 AM, Satcom wrote: > >> Or at least thats what NASA are reporting according to UK news services , although the promised two hours detailed notice never seemed to appear. >> >> So , where did it fall. >> >> Odds are in the Pacific to the SW of Hawaii , but NASA are still waiting for reports. >> >> John >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> FPSPACE mailing list >> FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >> http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > > > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at satcom.freeserve.co.uk Sat Sep 24 03:25:30 2011 From: john at satcom.freeserve.co.uk (Satcom) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 08:25:30 +0100 Subject: [FPSPACE] NASA Updates UARS deatils Message-ID: <005c01cc7a8b$23c5a520$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/uars/index.html NASA's decommissioned Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite fell back to Earth between 11:23 p.m. EDT Friday, Sept. 23 and 1:09 a.m. EDT Sept. 24. The satellite was passing eastward over Canada and Africa as well as vast portions of the Pacific, Atlantic and Indian oceans during that period. The precise re-entry time and location are not yet known with certainty. John From john at satcom.freeserve.co.uk Sat Sep 24 05:13:19 2011 From: john at satcom.freeserve.co.uk (Satcom) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 10:13:19 +0100 Subject: [FPSPACE] Slight refinement on UARS re entry Message-ID: <009301cc7a9a$33ac8bc0$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/uars/index.html NASA's decommissioned Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite fell back to Earth between 11:23 p.m. EDT Friday, Sept. 23 and 1:09 a.m. EDT Sept. 24. The Joint Space Operations Center at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California said the satellite penetrated the atmosphere over the Pacific Ocean. The precise re-entry time and location are not yet known with certainty. John From ljk4 at msn.com Sat Sep 24 17:15:52 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 17:15:52 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] =?windows-1252?q?FW=3A_News_Alert=3A_Dmitry_Medvedev_as?= =?windows-1252?q?ks_Vladi=ADmir_Putin_to_run_for_president_of_Russia?= In-Reply-To: <23298-76-PSLW3N-QEMM0-RN8MLH-B52L88-ZS4PNQ-H-M2-20110924-18a4a1f17d077788@e-dialog.com> References: <23298-76-PSLW3N-QEMM0-RN8MLH-B52L88-ZS4PNQ-H-M2-20110924-18a4a1f17d077788@e-dialog.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 09:12:04 -0400 From: newsletters at email.washingtonpost.com To: ljk4 at msn.com Subject: News Alert: Dmitry Medvedev asks Vladi?mir Putin to run for president of Russia ---------------------------------------- News Alert: Dmitry Medvedev asks Vladi?mir Putin to run for president of Russia September 24, 2011 9:10:37 AM ---------------------------------------- Russian President Dmitry A. Medvedev said Saturday he will step aside after one term as president, and called on the ruling United Russia party to endorse Vladimir V. Putin for the post. That makes it almost certain that Putin will return to the presidency, because United Russia, which he built, has a stranglehold on the country?s politics. http://link.email.washingtonpost.com/r/PSLW3N/RN8MLH/B52L88/ZS4PNQ/4HFDQ/36/h For more information, visit washingtonpost.com ****************************** Advertisement: Get The Washington Post app for iPad, iPhone or iPod Touch: http://itunes.com/apps/thewashingtonpost ****************************** Get breaking news alerts sent to your mobile phone. Text ALERTS to 98999. To unsubscribe, click here ---------------------------------------- ? 2011The Washington Post Company Washington Post Digital E-mail Customer Care 1150 15th Street NW Washington, DC 20071 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert_law at yahoo.com Sat Sep 24 17:42:20 2011 From: robert_law at yahoo.com (Robert Law) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 14:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] =?utf-8?q?FW=3A_News_Alert=3A_Dmitry_Medvedev_asks_Vlad?= =?utf-8?q?i=C2=ADmir_Putin_to_run_for_president_of_Russia?= In-Reply-To: References: <23298-76-PSLW3N-QEMM0-RN8MLH-B52L88-ZS4PNQ-H-M2-20110924-18a4a1f17d077788@e-dialog.com> Message-ID: <1316900540.51660.YahooMailNeo@web31703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Is this good or bad ?for the space program? Robert ________________________________ From: LARRY KLAES To: fpspace Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2011 10:15 PM Subject: [FPSPACE] FW: News Alert: Dmitry Medvedev asks Vladi?mir Putin to run for president of Russia ? ________________________________ Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 09:12:04 -0400 From: newsletters at email.washingtonpost.com To: ljk4 at msn.com Subject: News Alert: Dmitry Medvedev asks Vladi?mir Putin to run for president of Russia ---------------------------------------- News Alert: Dmitry Medvedev asks Vladi?mir Putin to run for president of Russia September 24, 2011 9:10:37 AM ---------------------------------------- Russian President Dmitry A. Medvedev said Saturday he will step aside after one term as president, and called on the ruling United Russia party to endorse Vladimir V. Putin for the post. That makes it almost certain that Putin will return to the presidency, because United Russia, which he built, has a stranglehold on the country?s politics. http://link.email.washingtonpost.com/r/PSLW3N/RN8MLH/B52L88/ZS4PNQ/4HFDQ/36/h For more information, visit washingtonpost.com ****************************** Advertisement: Get The Washington Post app for iPad, iPhone or iPod Touch: http://itunes.com/apps/thewashingtonpost ****************************** Get breaking news alerts sent to your mobile phone. Text ALERTS to 98999. To unsubscribe, click here ---------------------------------------- ? 2011The Washington Post Company Washington Post Digital E-mail Customer Care 1150 15th Street NW Washington, DC 20071 _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Sat Sep 24 17:46:18 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 17:46:18 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] =?windows-1252?q?FW=3A_News_Alert=3A_Dmitry_Medvedev_as?= =?windows-1252?q?ks_Vladi=ADmir_Putin_to_run_for_president_of_Russia?= In-Reply-To: <1316900540.51660.YahooMailNeo@web31703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <23298-76-PSLW3N-QEMM0-RN8MLH-B52L88-ZS4PNQ-H-M2-20110924-18a4a1f17d077788@e-dialog.com> , <1316900540.51660.YahooMailNeo@web31703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That is what I want to know. Putin seemed like he wanted to get competitive with the US as in days of yore. If so, how will this affect our access to the ISS? Larry Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 14:42:20 -0700 From: robert_law at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] FW: News Alert: Dmitry Medvedev asks Vladi?mir Putin to run for president of Russia To: ljk4 at msn.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org Is this good or bad for the space program? Robert From: LARRY KLAES To: fpspace Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2011 10:15 PM Subject: [FPSPACE] FW: News Alert: Dmitry Medvedev asks Vladi?mir Putin to run for president of Russia Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 09:12:04 -0400 From: newsletters at email.washingtonpost.com To: ljk4 at msn.com Subject: News Alert: Dmitry Medvedev asks Vladi?mir Putin to run for president of Russia ---------------------------------------- News Alert: Dmitry Medvedev asks Vladi?mir Putin to run for president of Russia September 24, 2011 9:10:37 AM ---------------------------------------- Russian President Dmitry A. Medvedev said Saturday he will step aside after one term as president, and called on the ruling United Russia party to endorse Vladimir V. Putin for the post. That makes it almost certain that Putin will return to the presidency, because United Russia, which he built, has a stranglehold on the country?s politics. http://link.email.washingtonpost.com/r/PSLW3N/RN8MLH/B52L88/ZS4PNQ/4HFDQ/36/h For more information, visit washingtonpost.com ****************************** Advertisement: Get The Washington Post app for iPad, iPhone or iPod Touch: http://itunes.com/apps/thewashingtonpost ****************************** Get breaking news alerts sent to your mobile phone. Text ALERTS to 98999. To unsubscribe, click here ---------------------------------------- ? 2011The Washington Post Company Washington Post Digital E-mail Customer Care 1150 15th Street NW Washington, DC 20071 _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Sat Sep 24 17:55:21 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 17:55:21 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Russia to build the Trans Bering Straight Railway by 2045 Message-ID: This Ain?t Your Ancestors? Ice Bridge ? Russia To Build Tunnel Across Bering Straitby Peter Murray September 15th, 2011 At 64 miles (103 km), it would not only be the longest tunnel in the world, it would more than double the currently longest British Channel Tunnel. It would span the Bering Straight and connect Russia to Alaska. Details are sketchy, but consensus indicates the tunnel would have a highway, high-speed rail tracks, a fiber optic network and pipelines for gas and oil. The total cost for the tunnel is projected at $65 billion USD. Full article here: http://singularityhub.com/2011/09/15/this-aint-your-ancestors-ice-bridge-%E2%80%93-russia-to-build-tunnel-across-bering-strait/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From agzak at optonline.net Sat Sep 24 18:37:13 2011 From: agzak at optonline.net (Anatoly Zak) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 18:37:13 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Russia to build the Trans Bering Straight Railway by 2045 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/24/11 5:55 PM, "LARRY KLAES" wrote: > the tunnel would have a highway > ...now Sarah Palin would be able to say that she not only can see Russia, but also drive there for a weekend! :) Anatoly Zak http://www.RussianSpaceWeb.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bhen at telenet.be Sat Sep 24 19:14:25 2011 From: bhen at telenet.be (Bart Hendrickx) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 01:14:25 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] UARS down In-Reply-To: <3A26AD6D-3FED-47DE-AE72-99F6B535A61D@collectspace.com> References: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <8D1CD132-B2C3-4776-8181-87DA04B10661@earthlink.net> <001101cc7a7e$0b945440$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <3A26AD6D-3FED-47DE-AE72-99F6B535A61D@collectspace.com> Message-ID: <001e01cc7b0f$b390d100$1ab27300$@be> Just to put things into perspective : some objects much heavier than UARS have made uncontrolled re-entries that completely escaped the media's attention. A few that come to mind : - Salyut-2 (20 tons) : out-of-control military Almaz space station (1972) - Kosmos-557 (20 tons) : out-of-control civilian DOS space station (1973) - Kvant space tug (10 tons) : was supposed to be de-orbited after delivering the Kvant module to Mir in 1987, but due to the need to perform a repeated docking attempt not enough propellant remained on board for a de-orbit burn. Instead, the tug was placed in a storage orbit higher than Mir and decayed naturally, re-entering in August 1988. - Kosmos-1767, 1820, 1871, 1873 (10-12 tons?) : four dummy satellites (code-named EPN 03.0695) launched by the Zenit rocket in 1986-1987 to simulate the rocket's maximum payload mass to low orbit Bart Hendrickx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomsona at flash.net Sat Sep 24 19:49:47 2011 From: thomsona at flash.net (Allen Thomson) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 16:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Russia to build the Trans Bering Straight Railway by 2045 Message-ID: <1316908187.42992.YahooMailClassic@web80207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > The total cost for the tunnel is projected at $65 billion USD. ? Sorta like the Space Launch System total cost, to bring this back to space. Both look pretty dubious in terms of utility, but who can say? From ljk4 at msn.com Sat Sep 24 20:00:24 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 20:00:24 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] UARS down In-Reply-To: <001e01cc7b0f$b390d100$1ab27300$@be> References: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER>, <8D1CD132-B2C3-4776-8181-87DA04B10661@earthlink.net>, <001101cc7a7e$0b945440$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER>, <3A26AD6D-3FED-47DE-AE72-99F6B535A61D@collectspace.com>, <001e01cc7b0f$b390d100$1ab27300$@be> Message-ID: And how many Soviet nuclear-powered spysats are waiting to come down next? That will make the news. Larry From: bhen at telenet.be To: FPSPACE at friends-partners.org Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 01:14:25 +0200 Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] UARS down Just to put things into perspective : some objects much heavier than UARS have made uncontrolled re-entries that completely escaped the media?s attention. A few that come to mind : - Salyut-2 (20 tons) : out-of-control military Almaz space station (1972)- Kosmos-557 (20 tons) : out-of-control civilian DOS space station (1973)- Kvant space tug (10 tons) : was supposed to be de-orbited after delivering the Kvant module to Mir in 1987, but due to the need to perform a repeated docking attempt not enough propellant remained on board for a de-orbit burn. Instead, the tug was placed in a storage orbit higher than Mir and decayed naturally, re-entering in August 1988.- Kosmos-1767, 1820, 1871, 1873 (10-12 tons?) : four dummy satellites (code-named EPN 03.0695) launched by the Zenit rocket in 1986-1987 to simulate the rocket?s maximum payload mass to low orbit Bart Hendrickx _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbcharle at gmail.com Sat Sep 24 21:09:22 2011 From: jbcharle at gmail.com (John) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 20:09:22 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] UARS down In-Reply-To: <001e01cc7b0f$b390d100$1ab27300$@be> References: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <8D1CD132-B2C3-4776-8181-87DA04B10661@earthlink.net> <001101cc7a7e$0b945440$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <3A26AD6D-3FED-47DE-AE72-99F6B535A61D@collectspace.com> <001e01cc7b0f$b390d100$1ab27300$@be> Message-ID: <370BCC32-89B0-4FB4-A95D-AA03CC2D70F3@gmail.com> Bart, thanks for the perspective. Re: the 1987 Kvant space tug. Why couldn't the delta v used to boost it into a storage orbit instead be used to deorbit it? Not to mention the apparent decision simply to delay a decision (as if the storage orbit was forever)? John Charles Houston, Texas On Sep 24, 2011, at 18:14, "Bart Hendrickx" wrote: > Just to put things into perspective : some objects much heavier than UARS have made uncontrolled re-entries that completely escaped the media?s attention. A few that come to mind : > > > > - Salyut-2 (20 tons) : out-of-control military Almaz space station (1972) > > - Kosmos-557 (20 tons) : out-of-control civilian DOS space station (1973) > > - Kvant space tug (10 tons) : was supposed to be de-orbited after delivering the Kvant module to Mir in 1987, but due to the need to perform a repeated docking attempt not enough propellant remained on board for a de-orbit burn. Instead, the tug was placed in a storage orbit higher than Mir and decayed naturally, re-entering in August 1988. > > - Kosmos-1767, 1820, 1871, 1873 (10-12 tons?) : four dummy satellites (code-named EPN 03.0695) launched by the Zenit rocket in 1986-1987 to simulate the rocket?s maximum payload mass to low orbit > > > > Bart Hendrickx > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bhen at telenet.be Sun Sep 25 08:11:29 2011 From: bhen at telenet.be (Bart Hendrickx) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 14:11:29 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] UARS down In-Reply-To: <370BCC32-89B0-4FB4-A95D-AA03CC2D70F3@gmail.com> References: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <8D1CD132-B2C3-4776-8181-87DA04B10661@earthlink.net> <001101cc7a7e$0b945440$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <3A26AD6D-3FED-47DE-AE72-99F6B535A61D@collectspace.com> <001e01cc7b0f$b390d100$1ab27300$@be> <370BCC32-89B0-4FB4-A95D-AA03CC2D70F3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001cc7b7c$41cae980$c560bc80$@be> John Charles wrote : Re: the 1987 Kvant space tug. Why couldn't the delta v used to boost it into a storage orbit instead be used to deorbit it? Not to mention the apparent decision simply to delay a decision (as if the storage orbit was forever)? It doesn?t look like there was enough propellant left on board to de-orbit the vehicle. After the maneuver (which burned the propellants to depletion) it ended up in a 383x406 km orbit, just about 40 km higher than Mir?s orbit. Apparently, they decided to use the remaining propellant just to get it out of harm?s way. The only mystery is why they moved it to a higher rather than a lower orbit, which would have minimized orbital lifetime. Bart Hendrickx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjp961 at svol.net Sun Sep 25 10:32:42 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 10:32:42 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Another previously lost Apollo moonrock located (from mission 17) Message-ID: <4e7f3c8e.c964cc0a.26d1.3622@mx.google.com> >From the Daily Mail (UK) photographs at the URL link http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2040589/Missing-Apollo-17-moon-rock- worth-10m-Bill-Clintons-files.html Missing Apollo 17 moon rock worth $10m found in Bill Clinton's files By Rachel Quigley Last updated at 5:44 PM on 22nd September 2011 An Apollo 17 moon rock missing for 30 years and believed to be worth up to $10 million has turned up in files belonging to Bill Clinton. The valuable rock was one of 50 presented to each state after the 1972 space mission. NASA has found that since the rocks have been distributed, a very low percentage - which are encased in acrylic and mounted on a plaque along with the intended recipient's flag - can actually be located. The rock, believed to have a black market value of up to $10 million, had been missing since at least 1980 until an archivist found it in old gubernatorial papers. Bobby Roberts, director of the Central Arkansas Library System, said the archivist opened a box previously archived as 'Arkansas flag plaque'. The rock and a state flag were originally affixed to the plaque, but the rock had fallen off and the plaque had been misplaced. 'The moon rock, which is in a plastic container, had fallen off the plaque,' Mr Roberts told NBC. 'The archivist immediately knew what he had discovered.' Three months after Apollo 17 returned home in December 1972, then-U.S. President Richard Nixon ordered the distribution of fragments from the rock that Astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmitt collected to 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its provinces. Approximately 60 of these have been located recently, the others lost or stolen. The Arkansas rock was originally presented to Gov. David Pryor in 1976 and hung in the governor's office during the term of Pryor's successor, the future president. Mr Roberts believes that when Clinton lost his bid for re-election in 1980, everything got packed up and the plaque and its rock from outer space were misplaced. Last year, Hawaii's missing moon rocks were found in a locked cabinet. The rocks weren't technically lost, an advisor to Hawaii's governor said, they just didn't know exactly where they were. New Jersey officials reported earlier this year that they had misplaced their rock and were appealing to the public for its whereabouts. The garden state's inquiry began in January at the suggestion of Joseph Gutheinz of Houston, a retired NASA investigator who has spent several years tracking the Apollo 17 gifts. Mr Gutheinz now teaches a University of Phoenix class in forensic investigation, and often assigns his students the task of confirming the relics' locations. The rocks - when they were given as gifts - became property of the state that they were donated to. MOON ROCKS Near the end of the third and final moonwalk and what would be the last moonwalk of the Apollo programme, Apollo 17 astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmitt picked up a rock - later labeled sample 70017 - and made a special dedication to the young people of Earth and 'picked up a very significant rock, typical of what we have here in the valley of Taurus-Littrow...composed of many fragments, of many sizes, and many shapes, probably from all parts of the Moon, perhaps billions of years old'. Then President Richard Nixon ordered the distribution of fragments of that rock to 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its provinces. The fragments were presented encased in an acrylic sphere, mounted on a wood plaque which included the recipients flag which had also flown aboard Apollo 17. The rocks became the property of the countries or states who received them. As time passed, administrations or regimes changed, and the rocks were likely either lost, stolen or locked away who knows where -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjp961 at svol.net Sun Sep 25 09:42:35 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 09:42:35 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" Message-ID: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com> To paraphrase the National Endowment for the Arts slogan "A Great Nation Deserves Great Art" "A Great Nation Deserves a Great Space Program" But I would ask: Is the United States' space capabilities really in a state of atrophy? We have lunar missions on tap; we have Martian missions on tap..they're unmanned explorations though. What do you think? Agency France Presse via raw story http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/09/22/neil-armstrong-says-u-s-space-program- embarrassing/ Neil Armstrong says U.S. space program 'embarrassing' By Agence France-Presse September 22, 2011 @ 5:22 pm WASHINGTON - Neil Armstrong, the first man to walk on the moon, told lawmakers Thursday that the end of the space shuttle era has left the American human spaceflight program in an "embarrassing" state. "We will have no American access to, and return from, low Earth orbit and the International Space Station for an unpredictable length of time in the future," Armstrong told the House Committee on Science, Space, and Technology. "For a country that has invested so much for so long to achieve a leadership position in space exploration and exploitation, this condition is viewed by many as lamentably embarrassing and unacceptable." Armstrong was part of a four-member panel of space experts who told lawmakers that NASA needs a stronger vision for the future and should focus on returning humans to the Moon and to the International Space Station. "A lead, however earnestly and expensively won, once lost, is nearly impossible to regain," said the US astronaut, now 81, who was commander of Apollo 11 and walked on the Moon in 1969. President Barack Obama canceled the Constellation program that would have returned humans to the Moon and called on NASA to instead focus on new, deep-space capabilities to carry people to an asteroid by 2025 and Mars by 2030. The retirement in July of the three-decade-old space shuttle program brought an end to the US capability to send humans to space until private industry can come up with a new commercial space capsule to the ISS, maybe by 2015. In the meantime, Russia's Soyuz capsules are the only taxis for the world's astronauts heading to low-Earth orbit, and a ticket to the ISS costs global space agencies between 50 and 60 million dollars each. "Get the shuttle out of the garage down there at Kennedy (Space Center), crank up the motors and put it back in service," said Eugene Cernan, who commanded the Apollo 17 flight and was the last man to walk on the Moon in 1972. "You want a launch vehicle today that will service the ISS? We've got it sitting down there. So before we put it in a museum, let's make use of it. It's in the prime of its life, how could we just put it away?" Cernan hailed the vision of John F. Kennedy, "a bold and courageous president who started us on a journey to the stars," and said thousands of Americans have been inspired by the space race with the Soviet Union. "Today, we are on a path of decay. We are seeing the book close on five decades of accomplishment as the leader in human space exploration," Cernan said. Cernan said Constellation has been replaced by a "mission to nowhere" and called on NASA to make plans to return to the Moon. "As unimaginable as it seems, we have now come full circle and ceded our leadership role in space back to the same country -- albeit by a different name -- that spurred our challenge five decades ago." He added: "I take no solace in the failure of the last Soyuz booster." Due to technical problem with a Soyuz rocket in August, a Russian cargo ship failed to reach orbit and crashed back to Earth, prompting Russia to temporarily ground a part of its Soyuz program to do emergency checks. Armstrong and others on the panel appeared to favor the unveiling earlier this month of a massive new launcher capable of powering manned space flights well beyond low-Earth orbit, the Space Launch System, which NASA called the most powerful rocket since the Saturn V rocket put US astronauts on the moon. Maria Zuber, principal investigator on NASA's unmanned GRAIL (Gravity Recovery and Interior Laboratory) mission that launched earlier this month to orbit the Moon, said lunar study is valuable, but noted that her students are inspired by the notion of exploring Mars. "The goal of human exploration of Mars is also the consensus opinion of the next generation who will carry out this challenge," she said. "Unfortunately Congress is cutting back NASA's advanced technology work and it is not clear how the agency will be able to unfold new advanced missions without a more concentrated effort to develop new technologies. Michael Griffin, professor of mechanical and aerospace engineering at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, raised concerns about a new space race and called China, which wants to put a robot on the Moon in 2013 and build its own space station for 2015, "a near-peer competitor." "When the Chinese can reach the Moon and we cannot, I do not see why any other nation would regard us as a world leader," he said. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbcharle at gmail.com Sun Sep 25 16:55:11 2011 From: jbcharle at gmail.com (John) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 15:55:11 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] UARS down In-Reply-To: <000001cc7b7c$41cae980$c560bc80$@be> References: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <8D1CD132-B2C3-4776-8181-87DA04B10661@earthlink.net> <001101cc7a7e$0b945440$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <3A26AD6D-3FED-47DE-AE72-99F6B535A61D@collectspace.com> <001e01cc7b0f$b390d100$1ab27300$@be> <370BCC32-89B0-4FB4-A95D-AA03CC2D70F3@gmail.com> <000001cc7b7c$41cae980$c560bc80$@be> Message-ID: Bart, that is what baffled me, too. Reminds me of "Marooned" when the astronomy JBC Sent from my iPhone. Please forgive typos. On Sep 25, 2011, at 7:11, "Bart Hendrickx" wrote: > John Charles wrote : > > > > Re: the 1987 Kvant space tug. Why couldn't the delta v used to boost it into a storage orbit instead be used to deorbit it? > > > > Not to mention the apparent decision simply to delay a decision (as if the storage orbit was forever)? > > It doesn?t look like there was enough propellant left on board to de-orbit the vehicle. After the maneuver (which burned the propellants to depletion) it ended up in a 383x406 km orbit, just about 40 km higher than Mir?s orbit. Apparently, they decided to use the remaining propellant just to get it out of harm?s way. The only mystery is why they moved it to a higher rather than a lower orbit, which would have minimized orbital lifetime. > > > > Bart Hendrickx > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.b.charles at nasa.gov Sun Sep 25 16:58:26 2011 From: john.b.charles at nasa.gov (Charles, John B. (JSC-SA211)) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 15:58:26 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] UARS down In-Reply-To: References: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <8D1CD132-B2C3-4776-8181-87DA04B10661@earthlink.net> <001101cc7a7e$0b945440$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <3A26AD6D-3FED-47DE-AE72-99F6B535A61D@collectspace.com> <001e01cc7b0f$b390d100$1ab27300$@be> <370BCC32-89B0-4FB4-A95D-AA03CC2D70F3@gmail.com> <000001cc7b7c$41cae980$c560bc80$@be> Message-ID: <3CD641D4-9E34-4B28-B799-00E34DE546D7@nasa.gov> Disregard all after "baffled me too" please, in previous message. JBC Sent from my iPhone. Please forgive typos. On Sep 25, 2011, at 15:55, "John" > wrote: Bart, that is what baffled me, too. Reminds me of "Marooned" when the astronomy JBC Sent from my iPhone. Please forgive typos. On Sep 25, 2011, at 7:11, "Bart Hendrickx" <bhen at telenet.be> wrote: John Charles wrote : Re: the 1987 Kvant space tug. Why couldn't the delta v used to boost it into a storage orbit instead be used to deorbit it? Not to mention the apparent decision simply to delay a decision (as if the storage orbit was forever)? It doesn?t look like there was enough propellant left on board to de-orbit the vehicle. After the maneuver (which burned the propellants to depletion) it ended up in a 383x406 km orbit, just about 40 km higher than Mir?s orbit. Apparently, they decided to use the remaining propellant just to get it out of harm?s way. The only mystery is why they moved it to a higher rather than a lower orbit, which would have minimized orbital lifetime. Bart Hendrickx _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Sun Sep 25 20:30:28 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 18:30:28 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com> References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I think Neil could have this about the American space program five years ago. Why wait until now? Plus the article contain inaccuracies. We aren't waiting on private enterprise to build a Shuttle successor: we're renting services from the Russians, the way we did after Columbia broke up, and NASA is building a new piloted spacecraft not very different from the one Bush was underfunding. China a "near-peer competitor" - what can Griffin mean? He can't mean in terms of space travel. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ From: pjp961 at svol.net To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 09:42:35 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" To paraphrase the National Endowment for the Arts slogan ?A Great Nation Deserves Great Art? ?A Great Nation Deserves a Great Space Program? But I would ask: Is the United States? space capabilities really in a state of atrophy? We have lunar missions on tap; we have Martian missions on tap?.they?re unmanned explorations though? What do you think? Agency France Presse via raw story http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/09/22/neil-armstrong-says-u-s-space-program-embarrassing/ Neil Armstrong says U.S. space program ?embarrassing? By Agence France-Presse September 22, 2011 @ 5:22 pm WASHINGTON ? Neil Armstrong, the first man to walk on the moon, told lawmakers Thursday that the end of the space shuttle era has left the American human spaceflight program in an "embarrassing" state. "We will have no American access to, and return from, low Earth orbit and the International Space Station for an unpredictable length of time in the future," Armstrong told the House Committee on Science, Space, and Technology. "For a country that has invested so much for so long to achieve a leadership position in space exploration and exploitation, this condition is viewed by many as lamentably embarrassing and unacceptable." Armstrong was part of a four-member panel of space experts who told lawmakers that NASA needs a stronger vision for the future and should focus on returning humans to the Moon and to the International Space Station. "A lead, however earnestly and expensively won, once lost, is nearly impossible to regain," said the US astronaut, now 81, who was commander of Apollo 11 and walked on the Moon in 1969. President Barack Obama canceled the Constellation program that would have returned humans to the Moon and called on NASA to instead focus on new, deep-space capabilities to carry people to an asteroid by 2025 and Mars by 2030. The retirement in July of the three-decade-old space shuttle program brought an end to the US capability to send humans to space until private industry can come up with a new commercial space capsule to the ISS, maybe by 2015. In the meantime, Russia's Soyuz capsules are the only taxis for the world's astronauts heading to low-Earth orbit, and a ticket to the ISS costs global space agencies between 50 and 60 million dollars each. "Get the shuttle out of the garage down there at Kennedy (Space Center), crank up the motors and put it back in service," said Eugene Cernan, who commanded the Apollo 17 flight and was the last man to walk on the Moon in 1972. "You want a launch vehicle today that will service the ISS? We've got it sitting down there. So before we put it in a museum, let's make use of it. It's in the prime of its life, how could we just put it away?" Cernan hailed the vision of John F. Kennedy, "a bold and courageous president who started us on a journey to the stars," and said thousands of Americans have been inspired by the space race with the Soviet Union. "Today, we are on a path of decay. We are seeing the book close on five decades of accomplishment as the leader in human space exploration," Cernan said. Cernan said Constellation has been replaced by a "mission to nowhere" and called on NASA to make plans to return to the Moon. "As unimaginable as it seems, we have now come full circle and ceded our leadership role in space back to the same country -- albeit by a different name -- that spurred our challenge five decades ago." He added: "I take no solace in the failure of the last Soyuz booster." Due to technical problem with a Soyuz rocket in August, a Russian cargo ship failed to reach orbit and crashed back to Earth, prompting Russia to temporarily ground a part of its Soyuz program to do emergency checks. Armstrong and others on the panel appeared to favor the unveiling earlier this month of a massive new launcher capable of powering manned space flights well beyond low-Earth orbit, the Space Launch System, which NASA called the most powerful rocket since the Saturn V rocket put US astronauts on the moon. Maria Zuber, principal investigator on NASA's unmanned GRAIL (Gravity Recovery and Interior Laboratory) mission that launched earlier this month to orbit the Moon, said lunar study is valuable, but noted that her students are inspired by the notion of exploring Mars. "The goal of human exploration of Mars is also the consensus opinion of the next generation who will carry out this challenge," she said. "Unfortunately Congress is cutting back NASA's advanced technology work and it is not clear how the agency will be able to unfold new advanced missions without a more concentrated effort to develop new technologies. Michael Griffin, professor of mechanical and aerospace engineering at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, raised concerns about a new space race and called China, which wants to put a robot on the Moon in 2013 and build its own space station for 2015, "a near-peer competitor." "When the Chinese can reach the Moon and we cannot, I do not see why any other nation would regard us as a world leader," he said. _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Sun Sep 25 20:48:06 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 20:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com> I don't think it would have been nearly as effective five years ago. We still had a manned space program that wasn't dependent on the Russians, and it's unlikely he and Cernan would have had an audience with Congress. I don't agree with everything they said, but I think the spirit of the message hit the nail right on the head. Regards, David L. Rickman -----Original Message----- From: David Portree To: pjp961 ; fpspace Sent: Sun, Sep 25, 2011 4:30 pm Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" I think Neil could have this about the American space program five years ago. Why wait until now? Plus the article contain inaccuracies. We aren't waiting on private enterprise to build a Shuttle successor: we're renting services from the Russians, the way we did after Columbia broke up, and NASA is building a new piloted spacecraft not very different from the one Bush was underfunding. China a "near-peer competitor" - what can Griffin mean? He can't mean in terms of space travel. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ From: pjp961 at svol.net To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 09:42:35 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" To paraphrase the National Endowment for the Arts slogan ?A Great Nation Deserves Great Art? ?A Great Nation Deserves a Great Space Program? But I would ask: Is the United States? spacecapabilities really in a state of atrophy? We have lunar missions on tap;we have Martian missions on tap?.they?re unmanned explorationsthough? What do you think? Agency France Presse via raw story http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/09/22/neil-armstrong-says-u-s-space-program-embarrassing/ NeilArmstrong says U.S.space program ?embarrassing? By AgenceFrance-Presse September 22, 2011 @ 5:22 pm WASHINGTON ? Neil Armstrong, the firstman to walk on the moon, told lawmakers Thursday that the end of the spaceshuttle era has left the American human spaceflight program in an"embarrassing" state. "We will have no American access to, andreturn from, low Earth orbit and the International Space Station for anunpredictable length of time in the future," Armstrong told the HouseCommittee on Science, Space, and Technology. "For a country that has invested so muchfor so long to achieve a leadership position in space exploration andexploitation, this condition is viewed by many as lamentably embarrassing andunacceptable." Armstrong was part of a four-member panel ofspace experts who told lawmakers that NASA needs a stronger vision for thefuture and should focus on returning humans to the Moon and to theInternational Space Station. "A lead, however earnestly andexpensively won, once lost, is nearly impossible to regain," said the US astronaut,now 81, who was commander of Apollo 11 and walked on the Moon in 1969. President Barack Obama canceled theConstellation program that would have returned humans to the Moon and called onNASA to instead focus on new, deep-space capabilities to carry people to anasteroid by 2025 and Mars by 2030. The retirement in July of the three-decade-oldspace shuttle program brought an end to the US capability to send humans tospace until private industry can come up with a new commercial space capsule tothe ISS, maybe by 2015. In the meantime, Russia's Soyuz capsules are theonly taxis for the world's astronauts heading to low-Earth orbit, and a ticketto the ISS costs global space agencies between 50 and 60 million dollars each. "Get the shuttle out of the garage downthere at Kennedy (Space Center), crank up themotors and put it back in service," said Eugene Cernan, who commanded theApollo 17 flight and was the last man to walk on the Moon in 1972. "You want a launch vehicle today thatwill service the ISS? We've got it sitting down there. So before we put it in amuseum, let's make use of it. It's in the prime of its life, how could we justput it away?" Cernan hailed the vision of John F. Kennedy,"a bold and courageous president who started us on a journey to thestars," and said thousands of Americans have been inspired by the spacerace with the Soviet Union. "Today, we are on a path of decay. We areseeing the book close on five decades of accomplishment as the leader in humanspace exploration," Cernan said. Cernan said Constellation has been replaced bya "mission to nowhere" and called on NASA to make plans to return tothe Moon. "As unimaginable as it seems, we have nowcome full circle and ceded our leadership role in space back to the samecountry -- albeit by a different name -- that spurred our challenge fivedecades ago." He added: "I take no solace in thefailure of the last Soyuz booster." Due to technical problem with a Soyuz rocketin August, a Russian cargo ship failed to reach orbit and crashed back toEarth, prompting Russiato temporarily ground a part of its Soyuz program to do emergency checks. Armstrong and others on the panel appeared tofavor the unveiling earlier this month of a massive new launcher capable ofpowering manned space flights well beyond low-Earth orbit, the Space LaunchSystem, which NASA called the most powerful rocket since the Saturn V rocketput US astronauts on the moon. Maria Zuber, principal investigator on NASA'sunmanned GRAIL (Gravity Recovery and Interior Laboratory) mission that launchedearlier this month to orbit the Moon, said lunar study is valuable, but notedthat her students are inspired by the notion of exploring Mars. "The goal of human exploration of Mars isalso the consensus opinion of the next generation who will carry out thischallenge," she said. "Unfortunately Congress is cutting backNASA's advanced technology work and it is not clear how the agency will be ableto unfold new advanced missions without a more concentrated effort to developnew technologies. Michael Griffin, professor of mechanical andaerospace engineering at the Universityof Alabama in Huntsville,raised concerns about a new space race and called China, which wants to put a roboton the Moon in 2013 and build its own space station for 2015, "a near-peercompetitor." "When the Chinese can reach the Moon andwe cannot, I do not see why any other nation would regard us as a worldleader," he said. _______________________________________________FPSPACE mailing listFPSPACE at www.friends-partners.orghttp://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jameseoberg at comcast.net Sun Sep 25 21:07:19 2011 From: jameseoberg at comcast.net (James E Oberg) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 20:07:19 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com> <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <2E24143A396042EEB5FD065587EB7FC8@ownerfbf08f40c> I see little change in the essentially balanced symmetry of US/Russian 'reluctant co-dependence' on ISS. They can get into orbit, but without US segment's power and comm gear, they have no useful place to go. I'm just annoyed that US negotiators thought our position was so weak, they agreed to the permanent imbalanced 6-person crew ratio of three Russians to two Americans, ALWAYS. Baseless complaints of US weakness and asymmetric dependancy may have had an effect on undermining the bargaining backbones of NASA officials -- or maybe not. ----- Original Message ----- From: davidlrickman at aol.com To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 7:48 PM Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" I don't think it would have been nearly as effective five years ago. We still had a manned space program that wasn't dependent on the Russians, and it's unlikely he and Cernan would have had an audience with Congress. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Sun Sep 25 21:17:28 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 19:17:28 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com> References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com>, , <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: The hearing was (yet more) GOP posturing. They've trotted out Armstrong and Cernan before, and they said the same things. Bush shut down the Shuttle, then underfunded its replacement - if that was such a bad thing, why didn't these people speak out before? Like, maybe in 2005 or 2006? Besides, we're still building the Shuttle replacement - despite the severe damage done to the economy on Bush's watch, which could be (and has been) used to justify killing discretionary programs (like human spaceflight). So, what do these people have to complain about anyway? Bunch of babies. And, as I indicated, reliance on the Russians is not a new thing, nor especially bad. We wouldn't even have a space station if we hadn't let them into the program. We weren't grounded after Columbia because we had access to Russian spacecraft, and Progress vehicles kept ISS from reentering. How we do human spaceflight changed almost 20 years ago. Time these guys worked that out. Griffin had a chance to get the Chinese into the program, but he blew it. His great strategy - use them like the Soviets in the 1960s. The trouble is - no one really cares. My sense is that heroes like Armstrong and Cernan show their frailties when they let themselves be used in this way. The GOP's use of them tarnishes them, as the GOP has tarnished so much about our country since 2000. It's sad and embarrassing. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ To: fpspace at friends-partners.org From: davidlrickman at aol.com Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 20:48:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" I don't think it would have been nearly as effective five years ago. We still had a manned space program that wasn't dependent on the Russians, and it's unlikely he and Cernan would have had an audience with Congress. I don't agree with everything they said, but I think the spirit of the message hit the nail right on the head. Regards, David L. Rickman -----Original Message----- From: David Portree To: pjp961 ; fpspace Sent: Sun, Sep 25, 2011 4:30 pm Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" I think Neil could have this about the American space program five years ago. Why wait until now? Plus the article contain inaccuracies. We aren't waiting on private enterprise to build a Shuttle successor: we're renting services from the Russians, the way we did after Columbia broke up, and NASA is building a new piloted spacecraft not very different from the one Bush was underfunding. China a "near-peer competitor" - what can Griffin mean? He can't mean in terms of space travel. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ From: pjp961 at svol.net To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 09:42:35 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" To paraphrase the National Endowment for the Arts slogan ?A Great Nation Deserves Great Art? ?A Great Nation Deserves a Great Space Program? But I would ask: Is the United States? space capabilities really in a state of atrophy? We have lunar missions on tap; we have Martian missions on tap?.they?re unmanned explorations though? What do you think? Agency France Presse via raw story http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/09/22/neil-armstrong-says-u-s-space-program-embarrassing/ Neil Armstrong says U.S. space program ?embarrassing? By Agence France-Presse September 22, 2011 @ 5:22 pm WASHINGTON ? Neil Armstrong, the first man to walk on the moon, told lawmakers Thursday that the end of the space shuttle era has left the American human spaceflight program in an "embarrassing" state. "We will have no American access to, and return from, low Earth orbit and the International Space Station for an unpredictable length of time in the future," Armstrong told the House Committee on Science, Space, and Technology. "For a country that has invested so much for so long to achieve a leadership position in space exploration and exploitation, this condition is viewed by many as lamentably embarrassing and unacceptable." Armstrong was part of a four-member panel of space experts who told lawmakers that NASA needs a stronger vision for the future and should focus on returning humans to the Moon and to the International Space Station. "A lead, however earnestly and expensively won, once lost, is nearly impossible to regain," said the US astronaut, now 81, who was commander of Apollo 11 and walked on the Moon in 1969. President Barack Obama canceled the Constellation program that would have returned humans to the Moon and called on NASA to instead focus on new, deep-space capabilities to carry people to an asteroid by 2025 and Mars by 2030. The retirement in July of the three-decade-old space shuttle program brought an end to the US capability to send humans to space until private industry can come up with a new commercial space capsule to the ISS, maybe by 2015. In the meantime, Russia's Soyuz capsules are the only taxis for the world's astronauts heading to low-Earth orbit, and a ticket to the ISS costs global space agencies between 50 and 60 million dollars each. "Get the shuttle out of the garage down there at Kennedy (Space Center), crank up the motors and put it back in service," said Eugene Cernan, who commanded the Apollo 17 flight and was the last man to walk on the Moon in 1972. "You want a launch vehicle today that will service the ISS? We've got it sitting down there. So before we put it in a museum, let's make use of it. It's in the prime of its life, how could we just put it away?" Cernan hailed the vision of John F. Kennedy, "a bold and courageous president who started us on a journey to the stars," and said thousands of Americans have been inspired by the space race with the Soviet Union. "Today, we are on a path of decay. We are seeing the book close on five decades of accomplishment as the leader in human space exploration," Cernan said. Cernan said Constellation has been replaced by a "mission to nowhere" and called on NASA to make plans to return to the Moon. "As unimaginable as it seems, we have now come full circle and ceded our leadership role in space back to the same country -- albeit by a different name -- that spurred our challenge five decades ago." He added: "I take no solace in the failure of the last Soyuz booster." Due to technical problem with a Soyuz rocket in August, a Russian cargo ship failed to reach orbit and crashed back to Earth, prompting Russia to temporarily ground a part of its Soyuz program to do emergency checks. Armstrong and others on the panel appeared to favor the unveiling earlier this month of a massive new launcher capable of powering manned space flights well beyond low-Earth orbit, the Space Launch System, which NASA called the most powerful rocket since the Saturn V rocket put US astronauts on the moon. Maria Zuber, principal investigator on NASA's unmanned GRAIL (Gravity Recovery and Interior Laboratory) mission that launched earlier this month to orbit the Moon, said lunar study is valuable, but noted that her students are inspired by the notion of exploring Mars. "The goal of human exploration of Mars is also the consensus opinion of the next generation who will carry out this challenge," she said. "Unfortunately Congress is cutting back NASA's advanced technology work and it is not clear how the agency will be able to unfold new advanced missions without a more concentrated effort to develop new technologies. Michael Griffin, professor of mechanical and aerospace engineering at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, raised concerns about a new space race and called China, which wants to put a robot on the Moon in 2013 and build its own space station for 2015, "a near-peer competitor." "When the Chinese can reach the Moon and we cannot, I do not see why any other nation would regard us as a world leader," he said. _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Sun Sep 25 21:24:42 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 19:24:42 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: <2E24143A396042EEB5FD065587EB7FC8@ownerfbf08f40c> References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com>, , <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com>, <2E24143A396042EEB5FD065587EB7FC8@ownerfbf08f40c> Message-ID: Jim: "Reluctant"? Folks in the trenches have had nearly 20 years to get used to working with the Russians as partners on board ISS. Plus, there's no "always" in the space program. We could change the crew ratio whenever we are ready to do so. For now, we aren't. So, what's to complain about? As long as the partners are doing each other's experiments, what's the problem? I do agree with your comment about "baseless complaints of US weakness," but I doubt that they have had much effect on anything except certain segments of the GOP base. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ From: jameseoberg at comcast.net To: fpspace at friends-partners.org; davidlrickman at aol.com Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 20:07:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" I see little change in the essentially balanced symmetry of US/Russian 'reluctant co-dependence' on ISS. They can get into orbit, but without US segment's power and comm gear, they have no useful place to go. I'm just annoyed that US negotiators thought our position was so weak, they agreed to the permanent imbalanced 6-person crew ratio of three Russians to two Americans, ALWAYS. Baseless complaints of US weakness and asymmetric dependancy may have had an effect on undermining the bargaining backbones of NASA officials -- or maybe not. ----- Original Message ----- From: davidlrickman at aol.com To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 7:48 PM Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" I don't think it would have been nearly as effective five years ago. We still had a manned space program that wasn't dependent on the Russians, and it's unlikely he and Cernan would have had an audience with Congress. _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jameseoberg at comcast.net Sun Sep 25 22:20:40 2011 From: jameseoberg at comcast.net (James E Oberg) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 21:20:40 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com>, , <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com>, <2E24143A396042EEB5FD065587EB7FC8@ownerfbf08f40c> Message-ID: <6FFA7F40C46F43A18DBDAE10EADDB9CC@ownerfbf08f40c> ----- Original Message ----- From: David Portree To: jameseoberg at comcast.net ; fpspace at friends-partners.org ; davidlrickman at aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 8:24 PM Subject: RE: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" Jim: "Reluctant"? Folks in the trenches have had nearly 20 years to get used to working with the Russians as partners on board ISS. David, since I've been in those trenches and you haven't, I might have a better sense of the sense of the team. Plus, there's no "always" in the space program. We could change the crew ratio whenever we are ready to do so. For now, we aren't. So, what's to complain about? As long as the partners are doing each other's experiments, what's the problem? Begging your pardon, but how do 'we' change the ratio when it's clear the Russians won't agree? I do agree with your comment about "baseless complaints of US weakness," but I doubt that they have had much effect on anything except certain segments of the GOP base. David, your constantly flaunting your political biases was the reason I de-friended you on Facebook, it was just wearisome. And it was a high price to pay since I value your technical and historical assessments so highly. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jameseoberg at comcast.net Sun Sep 25 22:24:21 2011 From: jameseoberg at comcast.net (James E Oberg) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 21:24:21 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com>, , <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <5F5754E661514E48A8322517262FFF1E@ownerfbf08f40c> ----- Original Message ----- From: David Portree Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 8:17 PM Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" ...despite the severe damage done to the economy on Bush's watch By the Democratic-controlled Congress, I might whimsically reposte, and by worldwide issues such as oil prices.... The surest way to deeper disaster is to misdiagnose the causes of a problem, so the prescribed remedies may not only NOT be helpful, they may make things worse. As -- well, look around us. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kgottschalk at uwc.ac.za Mon Sep 26 02:10:46 2011 From: kgottschalk at uwc.ac.za (Keith Gottschalk) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 08:10:46 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] ] Russia to build the Trans Bering Straight Railway by 2045 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E803386020000A600012B00@uwc.ac.za> It's not clear to me how a trans-Bering straits tunnel is linked to space flight, but let's take it in the spirit that all exploration is fun & interesting to most members of this email forum :) :) Talking as a political scientist, when someone announces a company project, or a govt. project, that is thirty-four years in the future, I do not believe it unless they prove they are serious by allocating a budget, & ring-fencing those funds in a escrow account or the equivalent. Other details confirm my scepticism. For example, claiming they will build an undersea railway, which would be over 1000 kms from the nearest railhead on the Alaska side (Fairbanks?) & over 2000 kms from the nearest railway on the Siberian side. Then too, what gauge would the railway tracks be laid at? Russian railways are on a wider gauge than that Alaska railway. Similarly, since both Siberia & Alaska export oil, where is the profit in building pipelines under the sea? You build pipelines between exporter & consumer. Anyway, have lots of tourist fun inspecting the potential sites for this. It's absolute National Geographic magazine countryside, & say hello to the sea-lions & walruses for me! - Keith >>> On 2011/09/24 at 11:55 PM, in message , LARRY KLAES wrote: This Ain*t Your Ancestors* Ice Bridge * Russia To Build Tunnel Across Bering Strait by Peter Murray September 15th, 2011 At 64 miles (103 km), it would not only be the longest tunnel in the world, it would more than double the currently longest British Channel Tunnel. It would span the Bering Straight and connect Russia to Alaska. Details are sketchy, but consensus indicates the tunnel would have a highway, high-speed rail tracks, a fiber optic network and pipelines for gas and oil. The total cost for the tunnel is projected at $65 billion USD. Full article here: http://singularityhub.com/2011/09/15/this-aint-your-ancestors-ice-bridge-%E2%80%93-russia-to-build-tunnel-across-bering-strait/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- All Email originating from UWC is covered by disclaimer http://www.uwc.ac.za/emaildisclaimer From japio at dds.nl Mon Sep 26 07:26:44 2011 From: japio at dds.nl (Jakob Terweij) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 13:26:44 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Current Status of Vyacheslav Filin? In-Reply-To: <8CE45E4A21D3274-21A0-4E5C7@webmail-m072.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE45E4A21D3274-21A0-4E5C7@webmail-m072.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20110926132644.3abmed502osgwwg0@webmail.dds.nl> He is now retired and is acting as consultant in Energya. I'll meet him in 1 hour here in Podlipki his telephone is +74957642683 . I remeber spomebody from the group asked his number a few weeks ago. Greetings Jakob Quoting davidlrickman at aol.com: > > FPSpacers, > > > > What is the current status of Vyacheslav Filin? I see that he was > fired over a Proton related failure in 2010, but RSC Energia still > shows him as Vice President and First Deputy General Designer. > > > Thanks in advance, > > > David L. Rickman > Jakob Terweij j van Lennepstraat 249C 1053 JD Amsterdam +31651549606 From dokter.nuyens at telenet.be Mon Sep 26 08:26:26 2011 From: dokter.nuyens at telenet.be (Zeger Nuyens) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 14:26:26 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" Message-ID: <4E806F72.8060803@telenet.be> Amen to that. The simple and embarrasing bottomline is that the US payed for most of the ISS and now they can't get there by themselves. US politicians (Dems and Reps alike) should do some soul-searching and get their act together instead of trying to get the most out of it for their own states. The sad thing is though that without that interest they are just not interested in space at all. I think it was Phillip Clark who (a quote I think) said politicians should have their brains surgically removed, I think it wouldn't make one tiny bit of difference at all. Zeger Nuyens > The hearing was (yet more) GOP posturing. They've trotted out Armstrong and Cernan before, and they said the same things. > Bush shut down the Shuttle, then underfunded its replacement - if that was such a bad thing, why didn't these people speak out before? Like, maybe in 2005 or 2006? > Besides, we're still building the Shuttle replacement - despite the severe damage done to the economy on Bush's watch, which could be (and has been) used to justify killing discretionary programs (like human spaceflight). So, what do these people have to complain about anyway? Bunch of babies. > And, as I indicated, reliance on the Russians is not a new thing, nor especially bad. We wouldn't even have a space station if we hadn't let them into the program. We weren't grounded after Columbia because we had access to Russian spacecraft, and Progress vehicles kept ISS from reentering. How we do human spaceflight changed almost 20 years ago. Time these guys worked that out. > Griffin had a chance to get the Chinese into the program, but he blew it. His great strategy - use them like the Soviets in the 1960s. The trouble is - no one really cares. > My sense is that heroes like Armstrong and Cernan show their frailties when they let themselves be used in this way. The GOP's use of them tarnishes them, as the GOP has tarnished so much about our country since 2000. It's sad and embarrassing. > > David S. F. Portree From robert_law at yahoo.com Mon Sep 26 09:30:53 2011 From: robert_law at yahoo.com (Robert Law) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 06:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Chinese space station Tiangong -1 Message-ID: <1317043853.71761.YahooMailNeo@web31707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A full simulated countdown and tests where completed at the space launch centre yesterday CCTV NEWS ? channel ?has started to pick up coverage made first recording this morning pictures of the CZ-3 Rocket ?with more?powerful?SRBs? the fairing at the top is slightly larger than when a shenzu ?space ship is attached ?also like the Saturn V Skylab ?there is no launch escape tower unfortunately?tomorows planed?launch?looks like it is going to slip to later in the week due to the weather the launch window is due to open tonight ?and close Friday Robert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Mon Sep 26 09:56:47 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 07:56:47 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: <6FFA7F40C46F43A18DBDAE10EADDB9CC@ownerfbf08f40c> References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com>, , <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com>, <2E24143A396042EEB5FD065587EB7FC8@ownerfbf08f40c> , <6FFA7F40C46F43A18DBDAE10EADDB9CC@ownerfbf08f40c> Message-ID: Jim: I don't see it as partisan, I see it as reality. Nothing I have written is factually incorrect. As I said, the way we do spaceflight changed 20 years ago. Bush the First started the push to merge with the Russians, Clinton expanded it. Anyone who is still having trouble with that and in the program needs a wakeup call really bad. And, how are you in the trenches any more than I am? My job is wholly NASA funded. Is yours? All the station partners have imposed requirements on each other. If we want more representation on board ISS, we negotiate for it. I took issue with your statement that the current crew imbalance is somehow carved in stone. Nothing else has been: why should that be? Statements that imply that were trapped in some negative relationship are merely inflammatory. I don't defriend people because I disagree with their political viewpoints. I think that's the act of someone who cannot consider alternate positions. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ From: jameseoberg at comcast.net To: dsfportree at hotmail.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org; davidlrickman at aol.com Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 21:20:40 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: David Portree To: jameseoberg at comcast.net ; fpspace at friends-partners.org ; davidlrickman at aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 8:24 PM Subject: RE: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" Jim: "Reluctant"? Folks in the trenches have had nearly 20 years to get used to working with the Russians as partners on board ISS. David, since I've been in those trenches and you haven't, I might have a better sense of the sense of the team. Plus, there's no "always" in the space program. We could change the crew ratio whenever we are ready to do so. For now, we aren't. So, what's to complain about? As long as the partners are doing each other's experiments, what's the problem? Begging your pardon, but how do 'we' change the ratio when it's clear the Russians won't agree? I do agree with your comment about "baseless complaints of US weakness," but I doubt that they have had much effect on anything except certain segments of the GOP base. David, your constantly flaunting your political biases was the reason I de-friended you on Facebook, it was just wearisome. And it was a high price to pay since I value your technical and historical assessments so highly. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Mon Sep 26 10:06:21 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 08:06:21 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: <5F5754E661514E48A8322517262FFF1E@ownerfbf08f40c> References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com>, , <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com> , <5F5754E661514E48A8322517262FFF1E@ownerfbf08f40c> Message-ID: Bush II was President, so it happened on his watch. Bush exercised his veto powers more than any President in recent memory, so it's not as if he bowed to the whims of Congress. And how can you not mention the enormous cost of conquering and occupying Iraq, while at the same time cutting taxes? I submit that the GOP needs to take responsibility and begin working to undo the damage done by its most recent President, not ceaselessly seeking to position itself for a return to power. I further submit that I am not partisan, I am American, and I am eager to see our country succeed. Hence my willingness to call a spade a spade. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ From: jameseoberg at comcast.net To: dsfportree at hotmail.com; davidlrickman at aol.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 21:24:21 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: David Portree Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 8:17 PM Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" ...despite the severe damage done to the economy on Bush's watch By the Democratic-controlled Congress, I might whimsically reposte, and by worldwide issues such as oil prices.... The surest way to deeper disaster is to misdiagnose the causes of a problem, so the prescribed remedies may not only NOT be helpful, they may make things worse. As -- well, look around us. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Mon Sep 26 10:21:18 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 08:21:18 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: <4E806F72.8060803@telenet.be> References: <4E806F72.8060803@telenet.be> Message-ID: Zeger: I don't see it as embarrassing. If we have a partnership, then we can rely on each other. We have done so before, in the aftermath of Columbia. Besides, even when they jack up their prices, access via the Russians is much cheaper than access via Shuttle. The embarrassing thing is that some people in NASA haven't worked out that the world changed 20 years ago. That said, I wish Bush II had not killed Shuttle. A flight a year would have been useful, and would have kept us with an independent resupply/crew exchange capability until we had a replacement in place. During the period when many bought the Bush II plan to replace Shuttle with a moon program (which was actually Griffin's plan, not Bush's, but Bush didn't care, so didn't rein him in - read the January 2004 Vision paper), folks were falling all over themselves to kill Shuttle. Even while Bush II consistently underfunded its replacement. Now that those actions have come home to roost, we need to take stock of where we are and what we have, and acknowledge that we've lived in a fantasy world since 2004. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 14:26:26 +0200 > From: dokter.nuyens at telenet.be > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org > Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" > > Amen to that. > The simple and embarrasing bottomline is that the US payed for most of > the ISS and now they can't get there by themselves. US politicians (Dems > and Reps alike) should do some soul-searching and get their act together > instead of trying to get the most out of it for their own states. The > sad thing is though that without that interest they are just not > interested in space at all. > I think it was Phillip Clark who (a quote I think) said politicians > should have their brains surgically removed, I think it wouldn't make > one tiny bit of difference at all. > > Zeger Nuyens > > > The hearing was (yet more) GOP posturing. They've trotted out Armstrong and Cernan before, and they said the same things. > > Bush shut down the Shuttle, then underfunded its replacement - if that was such a bad thing, why didn't these people speak out before? Like, maybe in 2005 or 2006? > > Besides, we're still building the Shuttle replacement - despite the severe damage done to the economy on Bush's watch, which could be (and has been) used to justify killing discretionary programs (like human spaceflight). So, what do these people have to complain about anyway? Bunch of babies. > > And, as I indicated, reliance on the Russians is not a new thing, nor especially bad. We wouldn't even have a space station if we hadn't let them into the program. We weren't grounded after Columbia because we had access to Russian spacecraft, and Progress vehicles kept ISS from reentering. How we do human spaceflight changed almost 20 years ago. Time these guys worked that out. > > Griffin had a chance to get the Chinese into the program, but he blew it. His great strategy - use them like the Soviets in the 1960s. The trouble is - no one really cares. > > My sense is that heroes like Armstrong and Cernan show their frailties when they let themselves be used in this way. The GOP's use of them tarnishes them, as the GOP has tarnished so much about our country since 2000. It's sad and embarrassing. > > > > David S. F. Portree > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dokter.nuyens at telenet.be Mon Sep 26 12:03:00 2011 From: dokter.nuyens at telenet.be (Zeger Nuyens) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 18:03:00 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: References: <4E806F72.8060803@telenet.be> Message-ID: <4E80A234.80908@telenet.be> David, The only point I wanted to make is the simple fact that if you want independent access to space you need your own machine to get there. Now that's something the US is very capable of doing as they proved it during 50 years. This looks like post-Skylab revisited and as a matter of fact, it is even worse because at that time at least they were building something and, yes there were some delays. This is like crying wolf and nobody there when the extent of the damage finally dawns. When I wanted a new job I first got one and after that I quit the first one. I agree with your comments especially Russian access being much cheaper than the Shuttle, but then any access is cheaper than the Shuttle and Bush's fantasies have cost us dearly. Zeger Nuyens On 09/26/2011 04:21 PM, David Portree wrote: > Zeger: > > I don't see it as embarrassing. If we have a partnership, then we can > rely on each other. We have done so before, in the aftermath of > Columbia. Besides, even when they jack up their prices, access via the > Russians is much cheaper than access via Shuttle. The embarrassing > thing is that some people in NASA haven't worked out that the world > changed 20 years ago. > > That said, I wish Bush II had not killed Shuttle. A flight a year > would have been useful, and would have kept us with an independent > resupply/crew exchange capability until we had a replacement in place. > During the period when many bought the Bush II plan to replace Shuttle > with a moon program (which was actually Griffin's plan, not Bush's, > but Bush didn't care, so didn't rein him in - read the January 2004 > Vision paper), folks were falling all over themselves to kill Shuttle. > Even while Bush II consistently underfunded its replacement. Now that > those actions have come home to roost, we need to take stock of where > we are and what we have, and acknowledge that we've lived in a fantasy > world since 2004. > > David S. F. Portree > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > dportree at usgs.gov > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > > Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 14:26:26 +0200 > > From: dokter.nuyens at telenet.be > > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org > > Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US > Space Program in "Embarrassing State" > > > > Amen to that. > > The simple and embarrasing bottomline is that the US payed for most of > > the ISS and now they can't get there by themselves. US politicians > (Dems > > and Reps alike) should do some soul-searching and get their act > together > > instead of trying to get the most out of it for their own states. The > > sad thing is though that without that interest they are just not > > interested in space at all. > > I think it was Phillip Clark who (a quote I think) said politicians > > should have their brains surgically removed, I think it wouldn't make > > one tiny bit of difference at all. > > > > Zeger Nuyens > > > > > The hearing was (yet more) GOP posturing. They've trotted out > Armstrong and Cernan before, and they said the same things. > > > Bush shut down the Shuttle, then underfunded its replacement - if > that was such a bad thing, why didn't these people speak out before? > Like, maybe in 2005 or 2006? > > > Besides, we're still building the Shuttle replacement - despite > the severe damage done to the economy on Bush's watch, which could be > (and has been) used to justify killing discretionary programs (like > human spaceflight). So, what do these people have to complain about > anyway? Bunch of babies. > > > And, as I indicated, reliance on the Russians is not a new thing, > nor especially bad. We wouldn't even have a space station if we hadn't > let them into the program. We weren't grounded after Columbia because > we had access to Russian spacecraft, and Progress vehicles kept ISS > from reentering. How we do human spaceflight changed almost 20 years > ago. Time these guys worked that out. > > > Griffin had a chance to get the Chinese into the program, but he > blew it. His great strategy - use them like the Soviets in the 1960s. > The trouble is - no one really cares. > > > My sense is that heroes like Armstrong and Cernan show their > frailties when they let themselves be used in this way. The GOP's use > of them tarnishes them, as the GOP has tarnished so much about our > country since 2000. It's sad and embarrassing. > > > > > > David S. F. Portree > > > > _______________________________________________ > > FPSPACE mailing list > > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cpgorski at gmail.com Mon Sep 26 13:32:06 2011 From: cpgorski at gmail.com (Christopher Gorski) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 13:32:06 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com> <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com> <5F5754E661514E48A8322517262FFF1E@ownerfbf08f40c> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 10:06 AM, David Portree I further submit that I am not partisan, I am American, and I am eager to > see our country succeed. Hence my willingness to call a spade a spade. > Commendable enough. Next you can work on the notion that the GOP is made up of Americans too, whose motivations are similar (eager to see our nation succeed) even if their methods are radically different. I submit that both parties have made the space program into an expense line-item politically and THAT is the root of the problem. Neither the members of the Democratic nor Republican parties want to be seen as spending money on anything not absolutely necessary right now--unless it's in their district, of course... If a politician can push a seemingly-good but expensive program with long-term benefit past the end of his term, he can be seen as not spending the money. And if the program ultimately fails, he can blame the next guy. So right now we have a couple presidents in a row who don't care about this, each willing to talk big about what we could be doing in twenty years, each knowing full well the Congress won't appropriate the money for them and that they'll be long gone before most of the public sees that nothing ever happened. On the off chance they succeed, they want some Kennedy-esque glory for having 'started' the ball rolling--but for now it's a game of political hot-potato... And THAT is why (Peter) our space program's gotten to an embarrassing place. And I think it has, and I don't think ISS has done much for us in that respect. It's kind of discouraging to compare what we've got with the 'plans for space utilization' from the 1980s, which called for the space station to be a base of operations for all sorts of work, for tugs to be able to bring satellites there for repair (and then redeploy them), and the like... right now we fly to an orbit that's got such an inclination that it costs a ton of fuel just to get there, and an impractical amount more to get from there to anything else (...Moon, satellites, ...), and we were afraid to go anywhere else at all even when we did have the means. So right now we have two guys on a base of Russian location (an orbit that overflies Baikonur) and we have to buy tickets from the Russians to get there, and we talk about the fixed lifespan of the ISS but don't have any plans whatsoever for what to do next (the moon! no, Mars! no, an asteroid!). Yeah, it's a bit embarrassing for the country that went from the first powered flight to walking on the Moon in 66 years to not even be able to fly people to the Moon--*or even low Earth orbit*--42 years later. It's like our national curiosity was sated with Apollo 11, we've been to space and done all that, and now our attention span is so short we're on to something else. Like Twitter. The manned version of Dragon will fix some of this when it comes online--but we'll still need someplace to go once we get into orbit. In the end, I think it's interesting that making our state-of-the-art spacecraft from 1981 reusable, we've removed the impetus to make a more efficient version anywhere along the next three decades... anything that couldn't be done as part of a regular OMDP just wasn't considered. Soyuz has been through a couple iterations in that time, though strictly I know few of the details. Will be interesting to see what pressures drive the continuing development of commercial 'space taxis', to borrow the term. Cheers, --me -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Mon Sep 26 14:31:22 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 12:31:22 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com> , <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com> , <5F5754E661514E48A8322517262FFF1E@ownerfbf08f40c> , Message-ID: I really wonder whether the GOP is in touch enough with reality to know what the country's best interests are. Holding hostage disaster relief and unemployment benefits to score points - it's shameful. And dissing science for the same reasons - bizaare. But never mind, that's not directly related to the discussion at hand. Our space station was never intended as a jumping-off place for planetary missions. At most it would have been (and still could be) a place to do the necessary biomedical spadework and technology research for pushing beyond LEO. Reagan made sure it would be a laboratory, not a shipyard. NASA hoped he didn't mean it, hence the Dual-Keel, but that was never adequately supported, and by 1992 the station was at death's door. Bush the Elder had begun US/Russian cooperation - Clinton accepted Russian invitations, first made c. 1988, to merge Mir-2 and Freedom. Hence Ralpha, hence ISS. Never mind that it's in a difficult orbit or any of the rest - it would not exist were it not for the geopolitical purpose Bush 41 and Clinton gave it. This is what I'm getting at when I talk about recognizing reality. People in Houston may find that working with the Russians chafes almost 20 years after it began, but they are the same people who thought that Bush II really meant it when he said that we were going to go beyond LEO. I said that it wasn't going to happen at the time, and was accused of being partisan. If being able to discern reality from fantasy is partisan, then I'm guilty as charged. Right now, Obama is trying to get back to what Bush II said he wanted to do. Read the January 2004 Vision description. Then read what Obama's White House has put out. Basically, Bush II endorsed more or less what NASA was working on at the time with regards to getting beyond LEO, but with the extra touch of cancelling the Shuttle. What he endorsed was based on work begun under Clinton. Then Mike Griffin got in and opted for Apollo reenactment over technology development and biomedical research. When Bush II didn't rein him in, it was entirely obvious (to me, at least) that he had proposed his Vision merely as an election-year ploy. Never mind that he failed to adequately fund it - even when Dems sought to give NASA more funds. To go beyond LEO, we need to do the necessary spacework. Panel after panel, committee after committee, has said that since the 1960s. The plan, as I understand it, is to spend a few years developing propulsion, power, life support, and other technologies while working to deal with the very real biomedical impacts of long-duration spaceflight. This has begun, though the GOP seems bent on undermining it (more criticizing their own past policies - they've been very schizoid), and we still have politicians on both sides of the aisle who would treat NASA as a jobs program at the expense of its future. It's not embarrassing that we can't do what we did in Apollo days. I don't pine for those days because Apollo was very much a part of its time. Today spaceflight is more international, and less based on motives most people recognize as being important. Cutbacks are not surprising. A slowing of the pace is not shocking, either, given the realities. Reliance on partners is not a stunner when to not do so means no program. We should feel fortunate that we have a manned space program, given the fact that human spaceflight is much less relevant to people than it was in the 1960s and given the economic crisis that began c. 2005. In the meantime, we are exploring the Solar System with spacecraft that are cheap enough that they are much less a political football than human spaceflight has become. The US is the unquestionable leader in this field. Frankly, robotic spaceflight is where it's at. The equivalent of NewSpace companies have been involved with it since the Discovery Program began almost 20 years ago. If we can get past the monster missions that got out of control under Bush - MSL is the prime example - then I think robotic spaceflight will be safe for a long time to come. What we need to be thinking about are new partnerships - this time pairing astronauts with exploring machines. I mean, the Shuttle was a robot during launch and reentry, and automation helped pilots land the Orbiters. This isn't new stuff, any more than the need to technology & biomedical research and to work with other countries is new stuff. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ From: cpgorski at gmail.com Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 13:32:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" To: dsfportree at hotmail.com CC: jameseoberg at comcast.net; davidlrickman at aol.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org; pjp961 at svol.net On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 10:06 AM, David Portree I further submit that I am not partisan, I am American, and I am eager to see our country succeed. Hence my willingness to call a spade a spade. Commendable enough. Next you can work on the notion that the GOP is made up of Americans too, whose motivations are similar (eager to see our nation succeed) even if their methods are radically different. I submit that both parties have made the space program into an expense line-item politically and THAT is the root of the problem. Neither the members of the Democratic nor Republican parties want to be seen as spending money on anything not absolutely necessary right now--unless it's in their district, of course... If a politician can push a seemingly-good but expensive program with long-term benefit past the end of his term, he can be seen as not spending the money. And if the program ultimately fails, he can blame the next guy. So right now we have a couple presidents in a row who don't care about this, each willing to talk big about what we could be doing in twenty years, each knowing full well the Congress won't appropriate the money for them and that they'll be long gone before most of the public sees that nothing ever happened. On the off chance they succeed, they want some Kennedy-esque glory for having 'started' the ball rolling--but for now it's a game of political hot-potato... And THAT is why (Peter) our space program's gotten to an embarrassing place. And I think it has, and I don't think ISS has done much for us in that respect. It's kind of discouraging to compare what we've got with the 'plans for space utilization' from the 1980s, which called for the space station to be a base of operations for all sorts of work, for tugs to be able to bring satellites there for repair (and then redeploy them), and the like... right now we fly to an orbit that's got such an inclination that it costs a ton of fuel just to get there, and an impractical amount more to get from there to anything else (...Moon, satellites, ...), and we were afraid to go anywhere else at all even when we did have the means. So right now we have two guys on a base of Russian location (an orbit that overflies Baikonur) and we have to buy tickets from the Russians to get there, and we talk about the fixed lifespan of the ISS but don't have any plans whatsoever for what to do next (the moon! no, Mars! no, an asteroid!). Yeah, it's a bit embarrassing for the country that went from the first powered flight to walking on the Moon in 66 years to not even be able to fly people to the Moon--*or even low Earth orbit*--42 years later. It's like our national curiosity was sated with Apollo 11, we've been to space and done all that, and now our attention span is so short we're on to something else. Like Twitter. The manned version of Dragon will fix some of this when it comes online--but we'll still need someplace to go once we get into orbit. In the end, I think it's interesting that making our state-of-the-art spacecraft from 1981 reusable, we've removed the impetus to make a more efficient version anywhere along the next three decades... anything that couldn't be done as part of a regular OMDP just wasn't considered. Soyuz has been through a couple iterations in that time, though strictly I know few of the details. Will be interesting to see what pressures drive the continuing development of commercial 'space taxis', to borrow the term. Cheers, --me -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Mon Sep 26 14:41:04 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 12:41:04 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: <4E80A234.80908@telenet.be> References: <4E806F72.8060803@telenet.be> ,<4E80A234.80908@telenet.be> Message-ID: Ah, but I pointed out where we were headed back in 2004. I was accused of being partisan, when in fact I was being realistic. I hereby declare, I Told You So. And when I said we should keep the Shuttle around, flying it once a year or so until we had a replacement, I was told the Shuttle had to go ASAP. Over the years people who criticized me when I first raised my concerns have emailed me to tell me I got it right. That they thought I was being partisan and alarmist, but that events were turning out as I had said they would. They were Griffin's fantasies, by the way. Bush failed to rein him in because he didn't give a damn about spaceflight (or much anything else, truth be told). The Vision was an election-year ploy, and more about shutting things down than starting things up. Griffin didn't get it. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 18:03:00 +0200 From: dokter.nuyens at telenet.be To: dsfportree at hotmail.com CC: fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" David, The only point I wanted to make is the simple fact that if you want independent access to space you need your own machine to get there. Now that's something the US is very capable of doing as they proved it during 50 years. This looks like post-Skylab revisited and as a matter of fact, it is even worse because at that time at least they were building something and, yes there were some delays. This is like crying wolf and nobody there when the extent of the damage finally dawns. When I wanted a new job I first got one and after that I quit the first one. I agree with your comments especially Russian access being much cheaper than the Shuttle, but then any access is cheaper than the Shuttle and Bush's fantasies have cost us dearly. Zeger Nuyens On 09/26/2011 04:21 PM, David Portree wrote: Zeger: I don't see it as embarrassing. If we have a partnership, then we can rely on each other. We have done so before, in the aftermath of Columbia. Besides, even when they jack up their prices, access via the Russians is much cheaper than access via Shuttle. The embarrassing thing is that some people in NASA haven't worked out that the world changed 20 years ago. That said, I wish Bush II had not killed Shuttle. A flight a year would have been useful, and would have kept us with an independent resupply/crew exchange capability until we had a replacement in place. During the period when many bought the Bush II plan to replace Shuttle with a moon program (which was actually Griffin's plan, not Bush's, but Bush didn't care, so didn't rein him in - read the January 2004 Vision paper), folks were falling all over themselves to kill Shuttle. Even while Bush II consistently underfunded its replacement. Now that those actions have come home to roost, we need to take stock of where we are and what we have, and acknowledge that we've lived in a fantasy world since 2004. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 14:26:26 +0200 > From: dokter.nuyens at telenet.be > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org > Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" > > Amen to that. > The simple and embarrasing bottomline is that the US payed for most of > the ISS and now they can't get there by themselves. US politicians (Dems > and Reps alike) should do some soul-searching and get their act together > instead of trying to get the most out of it for their own states. The > sad thing is though that without that interest they are just not > interested in space at all. > I think it was Phillip Clark who (a quote I think) said politicians > should have their brains surgically removed, I think it wouldn't make > one tiny bit of difference at all. > > Zeger Nuyens > > > The hearing was (yet more) GOP posturing. They've trotted out Armstrong and Cernan before, and they said the same things. > > Bush shut down the Shuttle, then underfunded its replacement - if that was such a bad thing, why didn't these people speak out before? Like, maybe in 2005 or 2006? > > Besides, we're still building the Shuttle replacement - despite the severe damage done to the economy on Bush's watch, which could be (and has been) used to justify killing discretionary programs (like human spaceflight). So, what do these people have to complain about anyway? Bunch of babies. > > And, as I indicated, reliance on the Russians is not a new thing, nor especially bad. We wouldn't even have a space station if we hadn't let them into the program. We weren't grounded after Columbia because we had access to Russian spacecraft, and Progress vehicles kept ISS from reentering. How we do human spaceflight changed almost 20 years ago. Time these guys worked that out. > > Griffin had a chance to get the Chinese into the program, but he blew it. His great strategy - use them like the Soviets in the 1960s. The trouble is - no one really cares. > > My sense is that heroes like Armstrong and Cernan show their frailties when they let themselves be used in this way. The GOP's use of them tarnishes them, as the GOP has tarnished so much about our country since 2000. It's sad and embarrassing. > > > > David S. F. Portree > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drwoods at stny.rr.com Mon Sep 26 22:13:03 2011 From: drwoods at stny.rr.com (David R. Woods) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 22:13:03 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] GAMBIT and HEXAGON Message-ID: <4E81312F.7090400@stny.rr.com> Jonathan McDowell's has published his latest Space Report: Number-647. In it is a section devoted to recently released declassified information on the Gambit and Hexagon U.S. reconnaissance satellites. There is also a huge collection of associated PDF files covering history, correspondences, and technical details. The only thing missing are actual high resolution photographs. Those are redacted out whenever they appear in the documents. http://planet4589.org/space/jsr/latest.html KH-7/KH8/KH-9 declassification ------------------------------- The NRO has declassified its film-return satellites GAMBIT and HEXAGON. You may enjoy the images athttp://planet4589.org/jcm/pics/11/gambit/index.html The declassified docs are athttp://planet4589.org/space/docs/nro The declassified documents include: http://planet4589.org/space/docs/nro/gam http://planet4589.org/space/docs/nro/hex http://planet4589.org/space/docs/nro/histories http://planet4589.org/space/docs/nro/other These Space Reports are an excellent source of information, and are available free of charge. People can subscribe/unsubscribe at:http://www.planet4589.org/mailman/listinfo/jsr Dave From cpvick at globalsecurity.org Tue Sep 27 01:00:06 2011 From: cpvick at globalsecurity.org (Charles Vick) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 01:00:06 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] GAMBIT and HEXAGON In-Reply-To: <4E81312F.7090400@stny.rr.com> References: <4E81312F.7090400@stny.rr.com> Message-ID: <001101cc7cd2$53725540$fa56ffc0$@globalsecurity.org> Comment, The KH-7/KH8/KH-9 imagery declassification remains under NGA and the DNI office for consideration control for possible declassification per NRO. Contract proposals have been solicited for image digitizing copying for the public to purchase. Copying would if approved take a year or more to accomplish with the Images of critical middle eastern countries and China remaining off limits. The last reports still indicates this is not a done deal for 2013 through 2016. In reality only KH-9 imagery is in the running for this in the next few years. Declassification of the last of the KH-7 and KH-8 imagery remains very very problematical at best. The intelligence community is very reluctant to let go of its "holy grail{", "crown jewels" imagery the best they ever got. cpvick -----Original Message----- From: fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org [mailto:fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org] On Behalf Of David R. Woods Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 10:13 PM To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: [FPSPACE] GAMBIT and HEXAGON Jonathan McDowell's has published his latest Space Report: Number-647. In it is a section devoted to recently released declassified information on the Gambit and Hexagon U.S. reconnaissance satellites. There is also a huge collection of associated PDF files covering history, correspondences, and technical details. The only thing missing are actual high resolution photographs. Those are redacted out whenever they appear in the documents. http://planet4589.org/space/jsr/latest.html KH-7/KH8/KH-9 declassification ------------------------------- The NRO has declassified its film-return satellites GAMBIT and HEXAGON. You may enjoy the images athttp://planet4589.org/jcm/pics/11/gambit/index.html The declassified docs are athttp://planet4589.org/space/docs/nro The declassified documents include: http://planet4589.org/space/docs/nro/gam http://planet4589.org/space/docs/nro/hex http://planet4589.org/space/docs/nro/histories http://planet4589.org/space/docs/nro/other These Space Reports are an excellent source of information, and are available free of charge. People can subscribe/unsubscribe at:http://www.planet4589.org/mailman/listinfo/jsr Dave _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace From ljk4 at msn.com Tue Sep 27 20:50:51 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:50:51 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] FW: MEDIA TELECONFERENCE: NASA'S MESSENGER Reveals New Details of Planet Mercury In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 16:42:50 -0400 From: Michael.Buckley at JHUAPL.EDU Subject: MEDIA TELECONFERENCE: NASA'S MESSENGER Reveals New Details of Planet Mercury To: MESSENGER-ENEWS-L at LISTSERV.JHUAPL.EDU Sept. 27, 2011 NASA SPACECRAFT REVEALS NEW DETAILS OF PLANET MERCURY Science Journal Has Embargoed Details Until 2 p.m. EDT on Sept. 29. WASHINGTON -- NASA will host a media teleconference at 2 p.m. EDT on Thursday, Sept. 29, to discuss new data and images from the first spacecraft to orbit Mercury. The new findings are reported in a series of seven papers published in a special section of Science magazine on Sept. 30. NASA's MErcury Surface, Space ENvironment, GEochemistry, and Ranging (MESSENGER) spacecraft conducted fifteen laps through the inner solar system for more than six years before achieving the historic orbit insertion on March 18. Briefing participants are:- Ed Graykzeck, MESSENGER program manager, NASA Headquarters, Washington- James Head, III, professor of geological sciences, Brown University- David Blewett, MESSENGER participating scientist and staff scientist, Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory (APL), Laurel, Md.- Patrick Peplowski, staff scientist, APL- Thomas Zurbuchen, professor of space science and aerospace engineering, University of Michigan To participate in the teleconference, reporters must contact Dwayne Brown at dwayne.c.brown at nasa.gov or 202-358-1726, by noon on Sept. 29 for dial-in instructions. Audio of the teleconference will be streamed live at: http://www.nasa.gov/newsaudio Related images and supporting briefing information will be available at: http://www.nasa.gov/messenger -end- MESSENGER (MErcury Surface, Space ENvironment, GEochemistry, and Ranging) is a NASA-sponsored scientific investigation of the planet Mercury and the first space mission designed to orbit the planet closest to the Sun. The MESSENGER spacecraft launched on August 3, 2004, and entered orbit about Mercury on March 17, 2011 (March 18, 2011 UTC), to begin a yearlong study of its target planet. Dr. Sean C. Solomon, of the Carnegie Institution of Washington, leads the mission as Principal Investigator. The Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory built and operates the MESSENGER spacecraft and manages this Discovery-class mission for NASA. You are subscribed to MESSENGER E-News; to unsubscribe, visit http://messenger.jhuapl.edu/enews/enews_unsubscribe.html. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Tue Sep 27 20:52:50 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:52:50 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files Message-ID: http://lunarnetworks.blogspot.com/2011/09/arkansas-lunar-sample-found-packed-away.html Friday, September 23, 2011 Arkansas Apollo 17 commemorative lunar sample found packed away among Bill Clinton's files Diane Alter A long lost, highly valuable moon rock, bought back by Apollo 17 has been found in former U.S. president Bill Clinton's files. The rock, missing for 30 years, was one of 50 presented to each state after the 1972 space mission. It was presented to Clinton's predecessor Gov. David Pryor in 1976. The rock hung in the governor's office that was later occupied by Clinton. The rock was apparently packed away with Clinton's memorabilia after it fell off its plaque. The moon rock is estimated to be worth $10 million. NASA says that few of the rocks, which were encased in acrylic and mounted on a plaque with the intended recipient's flag, can be located. The rock has been missing since 1980. Reports are that the rock fell off the plaque and was mistakenly packed away with gubernatorial papers belonging to Clinton. The archivist knew exactly what is was when he stumbled upon it. Three months after Apollo 17 returned home, then-president Richard Nixon ordered that fragments of the rocks carried home by astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmidt be distributed among 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its territories. When presented to the states as gifts, they became property of the state they were donated to. Only 60 can be located. The rest are said to have been stolen or lost. The rock is currently safely stored in a library safe. Posted by Joel Raupe at 10:53 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Wed Sep 28 09:47:39 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 07:47:39 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't think that this story is substantially correct. Even where it is correct, it is probably not important. The fragments distributed to heads of state and governors are very small. They originated in one rock, which Cernan and Schmitt collected for the purpose. The dollar value of these slivers of the moon is debatable, but if one were a fragment of a meteorite that originated on the moon, it would be worth nowhere near $10 million. I think that the "only 60 can be located" figure is suspect. I wish I knew the author's source. It would have been nice if she had noted that these moon rocks are tiny, taken from a randomly collected breccia with a mass of a kilogram or less, and do not count as part of the 400 or so kilograms stored at Houston, San Antonio, and (if my memory is correct) White Sands. There is a real story concerning the lunar samples, and that is that thousands - typically very small, but taken together a sizable quantity - have been loaned out all over the world to researchers and then inadequately tracked. Some fraction of those are probably lost, and some fraction of those lost probably constitute unique material. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ From: ljk4 at msn.com To: fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:52:50 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files http://lunarnetworks.blogspot.com/2011/09/arkansas-lunar-sample-found-packed-away.html Friday, September 23, 2011 Arkansas Apollo 17 commemorative lunar sample found packed away among Bill Clinton's files Diane Alter A long lost, highly valuable moon rock, bought back by Apollo 17 has been found in former U.S. president Bill Clinton's files. The rock, missing for 30 years, was one of 50 presented to each state after the 1972 space mission. It was presented to Clinton's predecessor Gov. David Pryor in 1976. The rock hung in the governor's office that was later occupied by Clinton. The rock was apparently packed away with Clinton's memorabilia after it fell off its plaque. The moon rock is estimated to be worth $10 million. NASA says that few of the rocks, which were encased in acrylic and mounted on a plaque with the intended recipient's flag, can be located. The rock has been missing since 1980. Reports are that the rock fell off the plaque and was mistakenly packed away with gubernatorial papers belonging to Clinton. The archivist knew exactly what is was when he stumbled upon it. Three months after Apollo 17 returned home, then-president Richard Nixon ordered that fragments of the rocks carried home by astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmidt be distributed among 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its territories. When presented to the states as gifts, they became property of the state they were donated to. Only 60 can be located. The rest are said to have been stolen or lost. The rock is currently safely stored in a library safe. Posted by Joel Raupe at 10:53 PM _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert at collectspace.com Wed Sep 28 11:23:05 2011 From: robert at collectspace.com (Robert Pearlman) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 10:23:05 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C8DD4B9-2C09-4CA0-8F3A-D0577D1B55A2@collectspace.com> David, That particular version of the Arkansas goodwill moon rock story does have a few issues, but it is more or less correct. Foreign nations, states and U.S. properties received two lunar sample gifts: Where Today are the Apollo 11 Lunar Sample Displays http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_apollo11.html Where Today are the Apollo 17 Goodwill Moon Rocks http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_goodwill.html Among just the U.S. state-gifted moon rocks, 15 of the 50 Apollo 11 gifts and 10 of the 50 Apollo gifts are still missing (and by missing I mean not found, they may be in fact missing/stolen but they may just be where no one doing the searching has thought to look yet). The majority of foreign-gifted samples have yet to be found. I would personally peg the dollar-value on these samples, if they could be sold legally, between $1 and $3 million, but $5 million was the asking price by the Miami businessman who "purchased" Honduras' sample, which kicked off this whole search. As for the loaned samples for study, my understanding is that NASA keeps a much more exact (though not public) accounting of where they are. They didn't track the goodwill samples because once given away, they were no longer U.S. government property. -- Robert Pearlman, Editor collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts http://www.collectspace.com/ Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE On Sep 28, 2011, at 8:47 AM, David Portree wrote: > I don't think that this story is substantially correct. Even where it is correct, it is probably not important. > > The fragments distributed to heads of state and governors are very small. They originated in one rock, which Cernan and Schmitt collected for the purpose. The dollar value of these slivers of the moon is debatable, but if one were a fragment of a meteorite that originated on the moon, it would be worth nowhere near $10 million. > > I think that the "only 60 can be located" figure is suspect. I wish I knew the author's source. > > It would have been nice if she had noted that these moon rocks are tiny, taken from a randomly collected breccia with a mass of a kilogram or less, and do not count as part of the 400 or so kilograms stored at Houston, San Antonio, and (if my memory is correct) White Sands. > > There is a real story concerning the lunar samples, and that is that thousands - typically very small, but taken together a sizable quantity - have been loaned out all over the world to researchers and then inadequately tracked. Some fraction of those are probably lost, and some fraction of those lost probably constitute unique material. > > David S. F. Portree > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > dportree at usgs.gov > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > From: ljk4 at msn.com > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:52:50 -0400 > Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > http://lunarnetworks.blogspot.com/2011/09/arkansas-lunar-sample-found-packed-away.html > > Friday, September 23, 2011 > > > Arkansas Apollo 17 commemorative lunar sample found packed away among Bill Clinton's files > > Diane Alter > > A long lost, highly valuable moon rock, bought back by Apollo 17 has been found in former U.S. president Bill Clinton's files. > > The rock, missing for 30 years, was one of 50 presented to each state after the 1972 space mission. It was presented to Clinton's predecessor Gov. David Pryor in 1976. The rock hung in the governor's office that was later occupied by Clinton. The rock was apparently packed away with Clinton's memorabilia after it fell off its plaque. > > The moon rock is estimated to be worth $10 million. NASA says that few of the rocks, which were encased in acrylic and mounted on a plaque with the intended recipient's flag, can be located. > > The rock has been missing since 1980. Reports are that the rock fell off the plaque and was mistakenly packed away with gubernatorial papers belonging to Clinton. The archivist knew exactly what is was when he stumbled upon it. > > Three months after Apollo 17 returned home, then-president Richard Nixon ordered that fragments of the rocks carried home by astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmidt be distributed among 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its territories. When presented to the states as gifts, they became property of the state they were donated to. Only 60 can be located. The rest are said to have been stolen or lost. > > The rock is currently safely stored in a library safe. > Posted by Joel Raupe at 10:53 PM > > > > _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.orghttp://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjp961 at svol.net Wed Sep 28 18:36:01 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 18:36:01 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Chinese space station module launch may be tomorrow Message-ID: <4e83a16d.0776960a.1d59.2a19@mx.google.com> >From the UK Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/8793466/China-prepares-to-launch-sp ace-laboratory.html Also photographs of the launch rocket and model of the space station module with its solar panels deployed with above article URL link Wednesday 28 September 2011 China prepares to launch space laboratory China will take the first step to having its own space station tomorrow, launching the Tiangong-1, or "Heavenly Palace" space laboratory. By Malcolm Moore , Shanghai 8:41AM BST 28 Sep 2011 The unmanned, 8.5 ton Tiangong-1 will help to test the technologies that China plans to use in its space station, which is scheduled for completion by 2020. It will also be used as a docking target for the unmanned Shenzhou 8 space craft which is expected to launch by the end of this year. If that mission succeeds, Chinese astronauts could fly to Tiangong-1 next year, dock, and live aboard it. If China can demonstrate it has a functioning docking system, it could also begin to dock with the International Space Station. China has held up its ambitious space programme as a symbol of its growing technological expertise. The module's launch arrives just before China's National Day celebrations on October 1. The mission has been delayed by a few weeks because of "over 170 technical modifications" that had to be made at the launch site in the Gobi desert, according to the director of the site. As China steps up its space programme, in competition with India and Japan, the United States and Russia have both scaled back their ambition. The US says it will not test a new space rocket to carry out manned missions until 2017 and Russia has said manned mission are no longer a priority. Meanwhile, China became only the third country to send an astronaut on a spacewalk in 2008 and is planning an unmanned moon landing for next year. It hopes to send a man to the moon by 2020, roughly five decades after the US managed the feat. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjp961 at svol.net Wed Sep 28 18:45:30 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 18:45:30 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Japanese spy satellite launch reported Message-ID: <4e83a39f.a499ec0a.3919.14f1@mx.google.com> >From the UK Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/8789078/Japan-launches- spy-satellite-to-monitor-North-Korea.html Japan launches spy satellite to monitor North Korea A new Japanese spy satellite has started beaming back images from North Korea as Tokyo steps up monitoring of its unpredictable neighbour. By Julian Ryall, Tokyo 12:01PM BST 26 Sep 2011 The images include pictures of North Korea's suspected missile launch sites and nuclear facilities. The classified payload was launched from the Tanegashima Space Centre, on a remote island off southern Japan, on Friday and is orbiting at a height of 300 miles. The government's Cabinet Satellite Intelligence Centre and the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency, which launched the satellite atop one of its 174-foot-tall H-2A rockets, have declined to reveal details of the mission. The vehicle is the fourth "Information Gathering Satellite" to be launched since March 2003. The first satellite was put into orbit after North Korea fired a missile over Japan and into the Pacific Ocean in 1998. Ignoring international pressure, North Korea fired a Taepodong-2 missile - with an estimated range of 4,100 miles - in April 2009 and has carried out regular tests of short-range weapons since. According to experts, the ?322.7 million satellite, built by Mitsubishi Electric Corp., is fitted with optical cameras and a telescope to provide images to the Japanese intelligence and defence authorities. The satellite is able to identify targets as small as 23 inches. Two of the earlier satellites have reached the end of their operational lives, but working with the surviving vehicle the new satellite will be tasked with providing advance warning of an imminent missile launch. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert_law at yahoo.com Wed Sep 28 20:00:46 2011 From: robert_law at yahoo.com (Robert Law) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 17:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Chinese space station update Message-ID: <1317254446.63165.YahooMailNeo@web31701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Fulling?is now underway ? CCTV has?announced?the?launch?time ?from 9:16pm to 9:30pm ?Beijing?time first manned?launch?in 2012 will have only one astronaut who will?manually?atempt randeveous and docking the next shenzu flight will ocur in one month's time Robert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Thu Sep 29 00:09:54 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (David L. Rickman) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:09:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Tiangong Launch Time Message-ID: <8CE4C74C6975846-3C8-C6F4D@webmail-d052.sysops.aol.com> FPSpacers, CCTV is announcing that Tiangong 1 is scheduled to launch between 9:16 and 9:31 pm EDT. Best, David L. Rickman Follow my progress as I recreate the Soviet Lunniy Korabl spaceship in 1:5 scale at http://lunniykorabl.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Thu Sep 29 00:21:37 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 22:21:37 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files In-Reply-To: <8C8DD4B9-2C09-4CA0-8F3A-D0577D1B55A2@collectspace.com> References: , <8C8DD4B9-2C09-4CA0-8F3A-D0577D1B55A2@collectspace.com> Message-ID: Robert: I have it from a good source that there are significant issues with the research sample accounting, and an effort is being made to call samples back - especially those that have been loaned out for years and are overseas. The loaned research samples are almost all small - thin sections and the like - but they occur in significant numbers - "thousands" was the word my source used, though I wouldn't quote that figure (it seems excessive to me). Not only lunar samples are involved - also meteorites - but the lunar samples have generated the most concern. How big are the gift samples? I was given to understand that they are very small - 10 grams or so. The educator samples I've seen are just a pinch of dust embedded in a clear plastic disk. I know that some of those have disappeared - one was lost in a fire in a UPS van, though the sample curation staffer who told me about that incident had his doubts. I suppose that the inflated dollar value would have something to do with the Apollo association? I guess talk of multi-million-dollar samples being lost makes them seem more important than they are. I've never heard a scientist begrudge the political gesture of the gift samples. A few years ago I had the opportunity to visit with the samples in Houston during their semi-annual security check, when they unpack a portion of the rocks, cores, and other samples and check them against their records. I had to dress up in a bunny suit, but it was worth it. The nitrogen cabinets were full of rocks. I was impressed by their many colors, and also by the glassy coating on many of the rocks formed by microscopic meteoroid impacts. It wasn't too hard to see what part of the rocks had been below the surface when they were collected. They didn't look earthly, and I don't think that was a subjective impression. The message here is, the lost samples amount to a tiny fraction of the total. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files From: robert at collectspace.com Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 10:23:05 -0500 CC: ljk4 at msn.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu To: dsfportree at hotmail.com David, That particular version of the Arkansas goodwill moon rock story does have a few issues, but it is more or less correct. Foreign nations, states and U.S. properties received two lunar sample gifts: Where Today are the Apollo 11 Lunar Sample Displays http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_apollo11.html Where Today are the Apollo 17 Goodwill Moon Rocks http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_goodwill.html Among just the U.S. state-gifted moon rocks, 15 of the 50 Apollo 11 gifts and 10 of the 50 Apollo gifts are still missing (and by missing I mean not found, they may be in fact missing/stolen but they may just be where no one doing the searching has thought to look yet). The majority of foreign-gifted samples have yet to be found. I would personally peg the dollar-value on these samples, if they could be sold legally, between $1 and $3 million, but $5 million was the asking price by the Miami businessman who "purchased" Honduras' sample, which kicked off this whole search. As for the loaned samples for study, my understanding is that NASA keeps a much more exact (though not public) accounting of where they are. They didn't track the goodwill samples because once given away, they were no longer U.S. government property. -- Robert Pearlman, EditorcollectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts http://www.collectspace.com/Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACEFacebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE On Sep 28, 2011, at 8:47 AM, David Portree wrote:I don't think that this story is substantially correct. Even where it is correct, it is probably not important. The fragments distributed to heads of state and governors are very small. They originated in one rock, which Cernan and Schmitt collected for the purpose. The dollar value of these slivers of the moon is debatable, but if one were a fragment of a meteorite that originated on the moon, it would be worth nowhere near $10 million. I think that the "only 60 can be located" figure is suspect. I wish I knew the author's source. It would have been nice if she had noted that these moon rocks are tiny, taken from a randomly collected breccia with a mass of a kilogram or less, and do not count as part of the 400 or so kilograms stored at Houston, San Antonio, and (if my memory is correct) White Sands. There is a real story concerning the lunar samples, and that is that thousands - typically very small, but taken together a sizable quantity - have been loaned out all over the world to researchers and then inadequately tracked. Some fraction of those are probably lost, and some fraction of those lost probably constitute unique material. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ From: ljk4 at msn.com To: fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:52:50 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files http://lunarnetworks.blogspot.com/2011/09/arkansas-lunar-sample-found-packed-away.html Friday, September 23, 2011 Arkansas Apollo 17 commemorative lunar sample found packed away among Bill Clinton's filesDiane Alter A long lost, highly valuable moon rock, bought back by Apollo 17 has been found in former U.S. president Bill Clinton's files. The rock, missing for 30 years, was one of 50 presented to each state after the 1972 space mission. It was presented to Clinton's predecessor Gov. David Pryor in 1976. The rock hung in the governor's office that was later occupied by Clinton. The rock was apparently packed away with Clinton's memorabilia after it fell off its plaque. The moon rock is estimated to be worth $10 million. NASA says that few of the rocks, which were encased in acrylic and mounted on a plaque with the intended recipient's flag, can be located. The rock has been missing since 1980. Reports are that the rock fell off the plaque and was mistakenly packed away with gubernatorial papers belonging to Clinton. The archivist knew exactly what is was when he stumbled upon it. Three months after Apollo 17 returned home, then-president Richard Nixon ordered that fragments of the rocks carried home by astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmidt be distributed among 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its territories. When presented to the states as gifts, they became property of the state they were donated to. Only 60 can be located. The rest are said to have been stolen or lost. The rock is currently safely stored in a library safe.Posted by Joel Raupe at 10:53 PM _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.orghttp://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace_______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert at collectspace.com Thu Sep 29 01:26:12 2011 From: robert at collectspace.com (Robert Pearlman) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:26:12 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files In-Reply-To: References: , <8C8DD4B9-2C09-4CA0-8F3A-D0577D1B55A2@collectspace.com> Message-ID: <2D5D2629-8F08-4EDF-B2DD-F8A57A60C641@collectspace.com> The Apollo 17 gifts are 1.142 grams each, all cut from the same rock. The Apollo 11 gifts are 0.05 grams each, in the form of four small pieces. It is generally accepted that the dollar value of any Apollo-recovered moon rock, assuming one could be legally auctioned, would be much more than the going rate for lunar meteorites or even Soviet-returned samples because of the history they represent. Given the prices paid for moon dust-stained artifacts, it is a reasonable estimation to place a rock (of any size) at seven figures, especially if the first to be sold. -- Robert Pearlman, Editor collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts http://www.collectspace.com/ Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE On Sep 28, 2011, at 11:21 PM, David Portree wrote: > Robert: > > I have it from a good source that there are significant issues with the research sample accounting, and an effort is being made to call samples back - especially those that have been loaned out for years and are overseas. The loaned research samples are almost all small - thin sections and the like - but they occur in significant numbers - "thousands" was the word my source used, though I wouldn't quote that figure (it seems excessive to me). Not only lunar samples are involved - also meteorites - but the lunar samples have generated the most concern. > > How big are the gift samples? I was given to understand that they are very small - 10 grams or so. > > The educator samples I've seen are just a pinch of dust embedded in a clear plastic disk. I know that some of those have disappeared - one was lost in a fire in a UPS van, though the sample curation staffer who told me about that incident had his doubts. > > I suppose that the inflated dollar value would have something to do with the Apollo association? I guess talk of multi-million-dollar samples being lost makes them seem more important than they are. I've never heard a scientist begrudge the political gesture of the gift samples. > > A few years ago I had the opportunity to visit with the samples in Houston during their semi-annual security check, when they unpack a portion of the rocks, cores, and other samples and check them against their records. I had to dress up in a bunny suit, but it was worth it. The nitrogen cabinets were full of rocks. I was impressed by their many colors, and also by the glassy coating on many of the rocks formed by microscopic meteoroid impacts. It wasn't too hard to see what part of the rocks had been below the surface when they were collected. They didn't look earthly, and I don't think that was a subjective impression. The message here is, the lost samples amount to a tiny fraction of the total. > > David S. F. Portree > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > dportree at usgs.gov > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > From: robert at collectspace.com > Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 10:23:05 -0500 > CC: ljk4 at msn.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > To: dsfportree at hotmail.com > > David, > > That particular version of the Arkansas goodwill moon rock story does have a few issues, but it is more or less correct. > > Foreign nations, states and U.S. properties received two lunar sample gifts: > > Where Today are the Apollo 11 Lunar Sample Displays > http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_apollo11.html > > Where Today are the Apollo 17 Goodwill Moon Rocks > http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_goodwill.html > > Among just the U.S. state-gifted moon rocks, 15 of the 50 Apollo 11 gifts and 10 of the 50 Apollo gifts are still missing (and by missing I mean not found, they may be in fact missing/stolen but they may just be where no one doing the searching has thought to look yet). The majority of foreign-gifted samples have yet to be found. > > I would personally peg the dollar-value on these samples, if they could be sold legally, between $1 and $3 million, but $5 million was the asking price by the Miami businessman who "purchased" Honduras' sample, which kicked off this whole search. > > As for the loaned samples for study, my understanding is that NASA keeps a much more exact (though not public) accounting of where they are. They didn't track the goodwill samples because once given away, they were no longer U.S. government property. > > -- > Robert Pearlman, Editor > collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts > http://www.collectspace.com/ > Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE > Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE > > On Sep 28, 2011, at 8:47 AM, David Portree wrote: > > I don't think that this story is substantially correct. Even where it is correct, it is probably not important. > > The fragments distributed to heads of state and governors are very small. They originated in one rock, which Cernan and Schmitt collected for the purpose. The dollar value of these slivers of the moon is debatable, but if one were a fragment of a meteorite that originated on the moon, it would be worth nowhere near $10 million. > > I think that the "only 60 can be located" figure is suspect. I wish I knew the author's source. > > It would have been nice if she had noted that these moon rocks are tiny, taken from a randomly collected breccia with a mass of a kilogram or less, and do not count as part of the 400 or so kilograms stored at Houston, San Antonio, and (if my memory is correct) White Sands. > > There is a real story concerning the lunar samples, and that is that thousands - typically very small, but taken together a sizable quantity - have been loaned out all over the world to researchers and then inadequately tracked. Some fraction of those are probably lost, and some fraction of those lost probably constitute unique material. > > David S. F. Portree > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > dportree at usgs.gov > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > From: ljk4 at msn.com > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:52:50 -0400 > Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > http://lunarnetworks.blogspot.com/2011/09/arkansas-lunar-sample-found-packed-away.html > > Friday, September 23, 2011 > > > Arkansas Apollo 17 commemorative lunar sample found packed away among Bill Clinton's files > > Diane Alter > > A long lost, highly valuable moon rock, bought back by Apollo 17 has been found in former U.S. president Bill Clinton's files. > > The rock, missing for 30 years, was one of 50 presented to each state after the 1972 space mission. It was presented to Clinton's predecessor Gov. David Pryor in 1976. The rock hung in the governor's office that was later occupied by Clinton. The rock was apparently packed away with Clinton's memorabilia after it fell off its plaque. > > The moon rock is estimated to be worth $10 million. NASA says that few of the rocks, which were encased in acrylic and mounted on a plaque with the intended recipient's flag, can be located. > > The rock has been missing since 1980. Reports are that the rock fell off the plaque and was mistakenly packed away with gubernatorial papers belonging to Clinton. The archivist knew exactly what is was when he stumbled upon it. > > Three months after Apollo 17 returned home, then-president Richard Nixon ordered that fragments of the rocks carried home by astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmidt be distributed among 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its territories. When presented to the states as gifts, they became property of the state they were donated to. Only 60 can be located. The rest are said to have been stolen or lost. > > The rock is currently safely stored in a library safe. > Posted by Joel Raupe at 10:53 PM > > > > _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.orghttp://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > From dsfportree at hotmail.com Thu Sep 29 10:19:37 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 08:19:37 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files In-Reply-To: <2D5D2629-8F08-4EDF-B2DD-F8A57A60C641@collectspace.com> References: , <8C8DD4B9-2C09-4CA0-8F3A-D0577D1B55A2@collectspace.com> , <2D5D2629-8F08-4EDF-B2DD-F8A57A60C641@collectspace.com> Message-ID: Robert: Thanks for that info. Those are tiny, tiny samples! No wonder they get lost. I bet the educator samples I've handled amount to more material than that. So, if we scraped all these samples together in one place, they'd amount to perhaps to maybe one-fifth of a kilogram? So, only about as much material as would fit in the palm of my hand is missing out of more than 800 pounds returned to Earth. Doesn't seem to be worth much fuss. I have no reading on the missing researcher samples. The hope is that they are not in fact missing and will turn up as they are called back, or so I am given to understand. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > From: robert at collectspace.com > Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:26:12 -0500 > CC: fpspace at friends-partners.org; ljk4 at msn.com > To: dsfportree at hotmail.com > > The Apollo 17 gifts are 1.142 grams each, all cut from the same rock. The Apollo 11 gifts are 0.05 grams each, in the form of four small pieces. > > It is generally accepted that the dollar value of any Apollo-recovered moon rock, assuming one could be legally auctioned, would be much more than the going rate for lunar meteorites or even Soviet-returned samples because of the history they represent. Given the prices paid for moon dust-stained artifacts, it is a reasonable estimation to place a rock (of any size) at seven figures, especially if the first to be sold. > > -- > Robert Pearlman, Editor > collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts > http://www.collectspace.com/ > Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE > Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE > > On Sep 28, 2011, at 11:21 PM, David Portree wrote: > > > Robert: > > > > I have it from a good source that there are significant issues with the research sample accounting, and an effort is being made to call samples back - especially those that have been loaned out for years and are overseas. The loaned research samples are almost all small - thin sections and the like - but they occur in significant numbers - "thousands" was the word my source used, though I wouldn't quote that figure (it seems excessive to me). Not only lunar samples are involved - also meteorites - but the lunar samples have generated the most concern. > > > > How big are the gift samples? I was given to understand that they are very small - 10 grams or so. > > > > The educator samples I've seen are just a pinch of dust embedded in a clear plastic disk. I know that some of those have disappeared - one was lost in a fire in a UPS van, though the sample curation staffer who told me about that incident had his doubts. > > > > I suppose that the inflated dollar value would have something to do with the Apollo association? I guess talk of multi-million-dollar samples being lost makes them seem more important than they are. I've never heard a scientist begrudge the political gesture of the gift samples. > > > > A few years ago I had the opportunity to visit with the samples in Houston during their semi-annual security check, when they unpack a portion of the rocks, cores, and other samples and check them against their records. I had to dress up in a bunny suit, but it was worth it. The nitrogen cabinets were full of rocks. I was impressed by their many colors, and also by the glassy coating on many of the rocks formed by microscopic meteoroid impacts. It wasn't too hard to see what part of the rocks had been below the surface when they were collected. They didn't look earthly, and I don't think that was a subjective impression. The message here is, the lost samples amount to a tiny fraction of the total. > > > > David S. F. Portree > > > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > > dportree at usgs.gov > > > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > From: robert at collectspace.com > > Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 10:23:05 -0500 > > CC: ljk4 at msn.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > > To: dsfportree at hotmail.com > > > > David, > > > > That particular version of the Arkansas goodwill moon rock story does have a few issues, but it is more or less correct. > > > > Foreign nations, states and U.S. properties received two lunar sample gifts: > > > > Where Today are the Apollo 11 Lunar Sample Displays > > http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_apollo11.html > > > > Where Today are the Apollo 17 Goodwill Moon Rocks > > http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_goodwill.html > > > > Among just the U.S. state-gifted moon rocks, 15 of the 50 Apollo 11 gifts and 10 of the 50 Apollo gifts are still missing (and by missing I mean not found, they may be in fact missing/stolen but they may just be where no one doing the searching has thought to look yet). The majority of foreign-gifted samples have yet to be found. > > > > I would personally peg the dollar-value on these samples, if they could be sold legally, between $1 and $3 million, but $5 million was the asking price by the Miami businessman who "purchased" Honduras' sample, which kicked off this whole search. > > > > As for the loaned samples for study, my understanding is that NASA keeps a much more exact (though not public) accounting of where they are. They didn't track the goodwill samples because once given away, they were no longer U.S. government property. > > > > -- > > Robert Pearlman, Editor > > collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts > > http://www.collectspace.com/ > > Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE > > Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE > > > > On Sep 28, 2011, at 8:47 AM, David Portree wrote: > > > > I don't think that this story is substantially correct. Even where it is correct, it is probably not important. > > > > The fragments distributed to heads of state and governors are very small. They originated in one rock, which Cernan and Schmitt collected for the purpose. The dollar value of these slivers of the moon is debatable, but if one were a fragment of a meteorite that originated on the moon, it would be worth nowhere near $10 million. > > > > I think that the "only 60 can be located" figure is suspect. I wish I knew the author's source. > > > > It would have been nice if she had noted that these moon rocks are tiny, taken from a randomly collected breccia with a mass of a kilogram or less, and do not count as part of the 400 or so kilograms stored at Houston, San Antonio, and (if my memory is correct) White Sands. > > > > There is a real story concerning the lunar samples, and that is that thousands - typically very small, but taken together a sizable quantity - have been loaned out all over the world to researchers and then inadequately tracked. Some fraction of those are probably lost, and some fraction of those lost probably constitute unique material. > > > > David S. F. Portree > > > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > > dportree at usgs.gov > > > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > > > > > > From: ljk4 at msn.com > > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > > Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:52:50 -0400 > > Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > > > http://lunarnetworks.blogspot.com/2011/09/arkansas-lunar-sample-found-packed-away.html > > > > Friday, September 23, 2011 > > > > > > Arkansas Apollo 17 commemorative lunar sample found packed away among Bill Clinton's files > > > > Diane Alter > > > > A long lost, highly valuable moon rock, bought back by Apollo 17 has been found in former U.S. president Bill Clinton's files. > > > > The rock, missing for 30 years, was one of 50 presented to each state after the 1972 space mission. It was presented to Clinton's predecessor Gov. David Pryor in 1976. The rock hung in the governor's office that was later occupied by Clinton. The rock was apparently packed away with Clinton's memorabilia after it fell off its plaque. > > > > The moon rock is estimated to be worth $10 million. NASA says that few of the rocks, which were encased in acrylic and mounted on a plaque with the intended recipient's flag, can be located. > > > > The rock has been missing since 1980. Reports are that the rock fell off the plaque and was mistakenly packed away with gubernatorial papers belonging to Clinton. The archivist knew exactly what is was when he stumbled upon it. > > > > Three months after Apollo 17 returned home, then-president Richard Nixon ordered that fragments of the rocks carried home by astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmidt be distributed among 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its territories. When presented to the states as gifts, they became property of the state they were donated to. Only 60 can be located. The rest are said to have been stolen or lost. > > > > The rock is currently safely stored in a library safe. > > Posted by Joel Raupe at 10:53 PM > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.orghttp://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > _______________________________________________ > > FPSPACE mailing list > > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert at collectspace.com Thu Sep 29 10:36:22 2011 From: robert at collectspace.com (Robert Pearlman) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 09:36:22 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files In-Reply-To: References: , <8C8DD4B9-2C09-4CA0-8F3A-D0577D1B55A2@collectspace.com> , <2D5D2629-8F08-4EDF-B2DD-F8A57A60C641@collectspace.com> Message-ID: <0679DC7C-14FD-4FCA-B130-299B68506E31@collectspace.com> David, I don't think it's the physical quantity of material that is important here. Yes, the large majority of Apollo-returned samples are safe in vaults in Texas and New Mexico, but most of those samples will never be seen by the public. And while NASA loans out a good number of educational and museum displays, the latter using much larger samples, they do not reach out to all the nations that were included with the goodwill gifts. The active search is primarily being conducted by students, an activity that gives them experience in a number of areas of research. That alone, I would argue, merits the effort. And I can share from personal experience that may of the nations and states that have recovered or relocated their moon rocks as a result of this effort have been very appreciative to do so, and those who have proudly displayed their goodwill moon rocks have been grateful for the additional attention being drawn to their exhibits. - Robert -- Robert Pearlman, Editor collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts http://www.collectspace.com/ Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE On Sep 29, 2011, at 9:19 AM, David Portree wrote: > Robert: > > Thanks for that info. Those are tiny, tiny samples! No wonder they get lost. I bet the educator samples I've handled amount to more material than that. > > So, if we scraped all these samples together in one place, they'd amount to perhaps to maybe one-fifth of a kilogram? > > So, only about as much material as would fit in the palm of my hand is missing out of more than 800 pounds returned to Earth. Doesn't seem to be worth much fuss. > > I have no reading on the missing researcher samples. The hope is that they are not in fact missing and will turn up as they are called back, or so I am given to understand. > > David S. F. Portree > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > dportree at usgs.gov > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > From: robert at collectspace.com > > Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:26:12 -0500 > > CC: fpspace at friends-partners.org; ljk4 at msn.com > > To: dsfportree at hotmail.com > > > > The Apollo 17 gifts are 1.142 grams each, all cut from the same rock. The Apollo 11 gifts are 0.05 grams each, in the form of four small pieces. > > > > It is generally accepted that the dollar value of any Apollo-recovered moon rock, assuming one could be legally auctioned, would be much more than the going rate for lunar meteorites or even Soviet-returned samples because of the history they represent. Given the prices paid for moon dust-stained artifacts, it is a reasonable estimation to place a rock (of any size) at seven figures, especially if the first to be sold. > > > > -- > > Robert Pearlman, Editor > > collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts > > http://www.collectspace.com/ > > Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE > > Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE > > > > On Sep 28, 2011, at 11:21 PM, David Portree wrote: > > > > > Robert: > > > > > > I have it from a good source that there are significant issues with the research sample accounting, and an effort is being made to call samples back - especially those that have been loaned out for years and are overseas. The loaned research samples are almost all small - thin sections and the like - but they occur in significant numbers - "thousands" was the word my source used, though I wouldn't quote that figure (it seems excessive to me). Not only lunar samples are involved - also meteorites - but the lunar samples have generated the most concern. > > > > > > How big are the gift samples? I was given to understand that they are very small - 10 grams or so. > > > > > > The educator samples I've seen are just a pinch of dust embedded in a clear plastic disk. I know that some of those have disappeared - one was lost in a fire in a UPS van, though the sample curation staffer who told me about that incident had his doubts. > > > > > > I suppose that the inflated dollar value would have something to do with the Apollo association? I guess talk of multi-million-dollar samples being lost makes them seem more important than they are. I've never heard a scientist begrudge the political gesture of the gift samples. > > > > > > A few years ago I had the opportunity to visit with the samples in Houston during their semi-annual security check, when they unpack a portion of the rocks, cores, and other samples and check them against their records. I had to dress up in a bunny suit, but it was worth it. The nitrogen cabinets were full of rocks. I was impressed by their many colors, and also by the glassy coating on many of the rocks formed by microscopic meteoroid impacts. It wasn't too hard to see what part of the rocks had been below the surface when they were collected. They didn't look earthly, and I don't think that was a subjective impression. The message here is, the lost samples amount to a tiny fraction of the total. > > > > > > David S. F. Portree > > > > > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > > > dportree at usgs.gov > > > > > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > > From: robert at collectspace.com > > > Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 10:23:05 -0500 > > > CC: ljk4 at msn.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > > > To: dsfportree at hotmail.com > > > > > > David, > > > > > > That particular version of the Arkansas goodwill moon rock story does have a few issues, but it is more or less correct. > > > > > > Foreign nations, states and U.S. properties received two lunar sample gifts: > > > > > > Where Today are the Apollo 11 Lunar Sample Displays > > > http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_apollo11.html > > > > > > Where Today are the Apollo 17 Goodwill Moon Rocks > > > http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_goodwill.html > > > > > > Among just the U.S. state-gifted moon rocks, 15 of the 50 Apollo 11 gifts and 10 of the 50 Apollo gifts are still missing (and by missing I mean not found, they may be in fact missing/stolen but they may just be where no one doing the searching has thought to look yet). The majority of foreign-gifted samples have yet to be found. > > > > > > I would personally peg the dollar-value on these samples, if they could be sold legally, between $1 and $3 million, but $5 million was the asking price by the Miami businessman who "purchased" Honduras' sample, which kicked off this whole search. > > > > > > As for the loaned samples for study, my understanding is that NASA keeps a much more exact (though not public) accounting of where they are. They didn't track the goodwill samples because once given away, they were no longer U.S. government property. > > > > > > -- > > > Robert Pearlman, Editor > > > collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts > > > http://www.collectspace.com/ > > > Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE > > > Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE > > > > > > On Sep 28, 2011, at 8:47 AM, David Portree wrote: > > > > > > I don't think that this story is substantially correct. Even where it is correct, it is probably not important. > > > > > > The fragments distributed to heads of state and governors are very small. They originated in one rock, which Cernan and Schmitt collected for the purpose. The dollar value of these slivers of the moon is debatable, but if one were a fragment of a meteorite that originated on the moon, it would be worth nowhere near $10 million. > > > > > > I think that the "only 60 can be located" figure is suspect. I wish I knew the author's source. > > > > > > It would have been nice if she had noted that these moon rocks are tiny, taken from a randomly collected breccia with a mass of a kilogram or less, and do not count as part of the 400 or so kilograms stored at Houston, San Antonio, and (if my memory is correct) White Sands. > > > > > > There is a real story concerning the lunar samples, and that is that thousands - typically very small, but taken together a sizable quantity - have been loaned out all over the world to researchers and then inadequately tracked. Some fraction of those are probably lost, and some fraction of those lost probably constitute unique material. > > > > > > David S. F. Portree > > > > > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > > > dportree at usgs.gov > > > > > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ljk4 at msn.com > > > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > > > Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:52:50 -0400 > > > Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > > > > > http://lunarnetworks.blogspot.com/2011/09/arkansas-lunar-sample-found-packed-away.html > > > > > > Friday, September 23, 2011 > > > > > > > > > Arkansas Apollo 17 commemorative lunar sample found packed away among Bill Clinton's files > > > > > > Diane Alter > > > > > > A long lost, highly valuable moon rock, bought back by Apollo 17 has been found in former U.S. president Bill Clinton's files. > > > > > > The rock, missing for 30 years, was one of 50 presented to each state after the 1972 space mission. It was presented to Clinton's predecessor Gov. David Pryor in 1976. The rock hung in the governor's office that was later occupied by Clinton. The rock was apparently packed away with Clinton's memorabilia after it fell off its plaque. > > > > > > The moon rock is estimated to be worth $10 million. NASA says that few of the rocks, which were encased in acrylic and mounted on a plaque with the intended recipient's flag, can be located. > > > > > > The rock has been missing since 1980. Reports are that the rock fell off the plaque and was mistakenly packed away with gubernatorial papers belonging to Clinton. The archivist knew exactly what is was when he stumbled upon it. > > > > > > Three months after Apollo 17 returned home, then-president Richard Nixon ordered that fragments of the rocks carried home by astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmidt be distributed among 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its territories. When presented to the states as gifts, they became property of the state they were donated to. Only 60 can be located. The rest are said to have been stolen or lost. > > > > > > The rock is currently safely stored in a library safe. > > > Posted by Joel Raupe at 10:53 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.orghttp://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > > _______________________________________________ > > > FPSPACE mailing list > > > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > > > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Thu Sep 29 10:56:17 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 08:56:17 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files In-Reply-To: <0679DC7C-14FD-4FCA-B130-299B68506E31@collectspace.com> References: , <8C8DD4B9-2C09-4CA0-8F3A-D0577D1B55A2@collectspace.com> , <2D5D2629-8F08-4EDF-B2DD-F8A57A60C641@collectspace.com> , <0679DC7C-14FD-4FCA-B130-299B68506E31@collectspace.com> Message-ID: Robert: It's an interesting situation. I tend to come at it from the science side, but it's heartening that people become enthusiastic about finding their missing samples and displaying them. Thank you for the additional details. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files From: robert at collectspace.com Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 09:36:22 -0500 CC: fpspace at friends-partners.org; ljk4 at msn.com To: dsfportree at hotmail.com David, I don't think it's the physical quantity of material that is important here. Yes, the large majority of Apollo-returned samples are safe in vaults in Texas and New Mexico, but most of those samples will never be seen by the public. And while NASA loans out a good number of educational and museum displays, the latter using much larger samples, they do not reach out to all the nations that were included with the goodwill gifts. The active search is primarily being conducted by students, an activity that gives them experience in a number of areas of research. That alone, I would argue, merits the effort. And I can share from personal experience that may of the nations and states that have recovered or relocated their moon rocks as a result of this effort have been very appreciative to do so, and those who have proudly displayed their goodwill moon rocks have been grateful for the additional attention being drawn to their exhibits. - Robert -- Robert Pearlman, EditorcollectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts http://www.collectspace.com/Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACEFacebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE On Sep 29, 2011, at 9:19 AM, David Portree wrote:Robert: Thanks for that info. Those are tiny, tiny samples! No wonder they get lost. I bet the educator samples I've handled amount to more material than that. So, if we scraped all these samples together in one place, they'd amount to perhaps to maybe one-fifth of a kilogram? So, only about as much material as would fit in the palm of my hand is missing out of more than 800 pounds returned to Earth. Doesn't seem to be worth much fuss. I have no reading on the missing researcher samples. The hope is that they are not in fact missing and will turn up as they are called back, or so I am given to understand. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > From: robert at collectspace.com > Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:26:12 -0500 > CC: fpspace at friends-partners.org; ljk4 at msn.com > To: dsfportree at hotmail.com > > The Apollo 17 gifts are 1.142 grams each, all cut from the same rock. The Apollo 11 gifts are 0.05 grams each, in the form of four small pieces. > > It is generally accepted that the dollar value of any Apollo-recovered moon rock, assuming one could be legally auctioned, would be much more than the going rate for lunar meteorites or even Soviet-returned samples because of the history they represent. Given the prices paid for moon dust-stained artifacts, it is a reasonable estimation to place a rock (of any size) at seven figures, especially if the first to be sold. > > -- > Robert Pearlman, Editor > collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts > http://www.collectspace.com/ > Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE > Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE > > On Sep 28, 2011, at 11:21 PM, David Portree wrote: > > > Robert: > > > > I have it from a good source that there are significant issues with the research sample accounting, and an effort is being made to call samples back - especially those that have been loaned out for years and are overseas. The loaned research samples are almost all small - thin sections and the like - but they occur in significant numbers - "thousands" was the word my source used, though I wouldn't quote that figure (it seems excessive to me). Not only lunar samples are involved - also meteorites - but the lunar samples have generated the most concern. > > > > How big are the gift samples? I was given to understand that they are very small - 10 grams or so. > > > > The educator samples I've seen are just a pinch of dust embedded in a clear plastic disk. I know that some of those have disappeared - one was lost in a fire in a UPS van, though the sample curation staffer who told me about that incident had his doubts. > > > > I suppose that the inflated dollar value would have something to do with the Apollo association? I guess talk of multi-million-dollar samples being lost makes them seem more important than they are. I've never heard a scientist begrudge the political gesture of the gift samples. > > > > A few years ago I had the opportunity to visit with the samples in Houston during their semi-annual security check, when they unpack a portion of the rocks, cores, and other samples and check them against their records. I had to dress up in a bunny suit, but it was worth it. The nitrogen cabinets were full of rocks. I was impressed by their many colors, and also by the glassy coating on many of the rocks formed by microscopic meteoroid impacts. It wasn't too hard to see what part of the rocks had been below the surface when they were collected. They didn't look earthly, and I don't think that was a subjective impression. The message here is, the lost samples amount to a tiny fraction of the total. > > > > David S. F. Portree > > > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > > dportree at usgs.gov > > > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > From: robert at collectspace.com > > Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 10:23:05 -0500 > > CC: ljk4 at msn.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > > To: dsfportree at hotmail.com > > > > David, > > > > That particular version of the Arkansas goodwill moon rock story does have a few issues, but it is more or less correct. > > > > Foreign nations, states and U.S. properties received two lunar sample gifts: > > > > Where Today are the Apollo 11 Lunar Sample Displays > > http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_apollo11.html > > > > Where Today are the Apollo 17 Goodwill Moon Rocks > > http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_goodwill.html > > > > Among just the U.S. state-gifted moon rocks, 15 of the 50 Apollo 11 gifts and 10 of the 50 Apollo gifts are still missing (and by missing I mean not found, they may be in fact missing/stolen but they may just be where no one doing the searching has thought to look yet). The majority of foreign-gifted samples have yet to be found. > > > > I would personally peg the dollar-value on these samples, if they could be sold legally, between $1 and $3 million, but $5 million was the asking price by the Miami businessman who "purchased" Honduras' sample, which kicked off this whole search. > > > > As for the loaned samples for study, my understanding is that NASA keeps a much more exact (though not public) accounting of where they are. They didn't track the goodwill samples because once given away, they were no longer U.S. government property. > > > > -- > > Robert Pearlman, Editor > > collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts > > http://www.collectspace.com/ > > Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE > > Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE > > > > On Sep 28, 2011, at 8:47 AM, David Portree wrote: > > > > I don't think that this story is substantially correct. Even where it is correct, it is probably not important. > > > > The fragments distributed to heads of state and governors are very small. They originated in one rock, which Cernan and Schmitt collected for the purpose. The dollar value of these slivers of the moon is debatable, but if one were a fragment of a meteorite that originated on the moon, it would be worth nowhere near $10 million. > > > > I think that the "only 60 can be located" figure is suspect. I wish I knew the author's source. > > > > It would have been nice if she had noted that these moon rocks are tiny, taken from a randomly collected breccia with a mass of a kilogram or less, and do not count as part of the 400 or so kilograms stored at Houston, San Antonio, and (if my memory is correct) White Sands. > > > > There is a real story concerning the lunar samples, and that is that thousands - typically very small, but taken together a sizable quantity - have been loaned out all over the world to researchers and then inadequately tracked. Some fraction of those are probably lost, and some fraction of those lost probably constitute unique material. > > > > David S. F. Portree > > > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > > dportree at usgs.gov > > > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > > > > > > From: ljk4 at msn.com > > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > > Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:52:50 -0400 > > Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > > > http://lunarnetworks.blogspot.com/2011/09/arkansas-lunar-sample-found-packed-away.html > > > > Friday, September 23, 2011 > > > > > > Arkansas Apollo 17 commemorative lunar sample found packed away among Bill Clinton's files > > > > Diane Alter > > > > A long lost, highly valuable moon rock, bought back by Apollo 17 has been found in former U.S. president Bill Clinton's files. > > > > The rock, missing for 30 years, was one of 50 presented to each state after the 1972 space mission. It was presented to Clinton's predecessor Gov. David Pryor in 1976. The rock hung in the governor's office that was later occupied by Clinton. The rock was apparently packed away with Clinton's memorabilia after it fell off its plaque. > > > > The moon rock is estimated to be worth $10 million. NASA says that few of the rocks, which were encased in acrylic and mounted on a plaque with the intended recipient's flag, can be located. > > > > The rock has been missing since 1980. Reports are that the rock fell off the plaque and was mistakenly packed away with gubernatorial papers belonging to Clinton. The archivist knew exactly what is was when he stumbled upon it. > > > > Three months after Apollo 17 returned home, then-president Richard Nixon ordered that fragments of the rocks carried home by astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmidt be distributed among 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its territories. When presented to the states as gifts, they became property of the state they were donated to. Only 60 can be located. The rest are said to have been stolen or lost. > > > > The rock is currently safely stored in a library safe. > > Posted by Joel Raupe at 10:53 PM > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.orghttp://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > _______________________________________________ > > FPSPACE mailing list > > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjp961 at svol.net Thu Sep 29 11:07:51 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:07:51 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Chinese space station module launched successfully Message-ID: <4e8489e4.f154ec0a.5ae2.7b88@mx.google.com> >From the Associated Press, via Yahoo http://news.yahoo.com/china-launches-module-space-station-134040793.html It also quotes our own fpspacer, Charles Vick! China launches module for space station By CHRISTOPHER BODEEN - Associated Press | AP - 5 mins ago BEIJING (AP) - China launched an experimental module to lay the groundwork for a future space station on Thursday, underscoring its ambitions to become a major space power over the coming decade. The box car-sized Tiangong-1 module was shot into space from the Jiuquan launch center on the edge of the Gobi Desert aboard a Long March 2FT1 rocket. It is to move into an orbit 217 miles (350 kilometers) above the Earth and conduct surveys of Chinese farmland using special cameras, along with experiments involving growing crystals in zero gravity. China then plans to launch an unmanned Shenzhou 8 spacecraft to practice remote-controlled docking maneuvers with the module, possibly within the next few weeks. Two more missions, at least one of them manned, are to meet up with it next year for further practice, with astronauts staying for up to one month. The 8.5-ton module, whose name translates as "Heavenly Palace-1," is to stay aloft for two years, after which two other experimental modules are to be launched for additional tests before the actual station is launched in three sections between 2020 and 2022. "This is a significant test. We've never done such a thing before," Lu Jinrong, the launch center's chief engineer, was quoted as saying by the official Xinhua News Agency. The space station, which is yet to be formally named, is the most ambitious project in China's exploration of space, which also calls for landing on the moon, possibly with astronauts. In terms of technology, the launch of the Tiangong-1 places China about where the U.S. was in the 1960s during the Gemini program. While it is planning fewer launches than the U.S. carried out, the Chinese program progresses farther than the U.S. did with each launch it undertakes, said Joan Johnson-Freese, a space expert at the U.S. Naval War College in Rhode Island. "China has the advantage, 40-plus years later, of not having to start at the bottom of the learning curve on its human spaceflight program," Johnson-Freese said. China's authoritarian, centralized political system also offers the advantage of freedom from political wrangles over funding and clearly defines the program's long-term goals within Soviet-style five-year plans. China launched its first manned flight in 2003, joining Russia and the United States as the only countries to launch humans into orbit and generating huge amounts of national pride for the Communist government. However, habitual secrecy and the space program's close links with the military have inhibited cooperation with other nations' space programs - including the International Space Station. At about 60 tons when completed, the Chinese station will be considerably smaller than the 16-nation ISS, which is expected to continue operating through 2028. China applied repeatedly to join the ISS, but was rebuffed largely on objections from the U.S., prompting it to adopt a go-it-alone strategy. While the program has proceeded with no apparent major problems, the launch of the Tiangong-1 module was delayed for one year for technical reasons, and then rescheduled again after a Long March 2C rocket similar to the Long March 2F failed to reach orbit in August. The incident with the rocket was investigated and problems were reportedly resolved. Although experts see no explicit military function for the Chinese space station, the country's other space-based military programs, including the destruction of a defunct Chinese satellite with a rocket in 2007, have caused alarm overseas. "It is a nation doing its own thing saying, 'OK, we can do what you did for our own country separate from cooperation, on Chinese terms,'" said Charles Vick, an expert on the Chinese space program with Globalsecurity.org, which tracks military and security news. Numerous challenges lie ahead, including the attempt to dock remotely - U.S. astronauts handled the maneuver from aboard their spacecraft. The Long March 5 rocket that is being prepared to launch the 20-ton modules for the actual space station also remains untested. Still, Beijing is expected to press ahead whatever the difficulties as long as it continues to result in international prestige, domestic credibility, technological advancement, and economic spin-offs, Johnson-Freese and Vick said. "Basically, they will get what they want regardless of how long or what it takes for the authoritarian state to accomplish the assigned tasks," Vick said. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drwoods at stny.rr.com Thu Sep 29 20:49:47 2011 From: drwoods at stny.rr.com (David R. Woods) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 20:49:47 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] China will host the first unmanned satellite docking Message-ID: <4E85122B.4090008@stny.rr.com> http://www.vesti.ru/videos?vid=366345 China has announced that by mid-November it will host the first in its history, an unmanned satellite docking. Thus China will begin immediately preparing to create its own space station. Her plan to launch in 2020. And on Thursday will be running machine named "Tien Kung", ITAR-TASS. The module must have worked for 2 years. During this time, with three ships dock. Two of them are manned. Cosmonaut has already been formed - the first time it included women. From davidlrickman at aol.com Thu Sep 29 21:11:59 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (David L. Rickman) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 21:11:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files In-Reply-To: References: , <8C8DD4B9-2C09-4CA0-8F3A-D0577D1B55A2@collectspace.com>, <2D5D2629-8F08-4EDF-B2DD-F8A57A60C641@collectspace.com>, <0679DC7C-14FD-4FCA-B130-299B68506E31@collectspace.com> Message-ID: <8CE4D2516886022-1CD8-B54E@webmail-d088.sysops.aol.com> One thing I haven't seen announced in this forum is that the sample that the governors of the 50 states received their sample attached to a plaque which also had that states flag on it. The sample fell off, and was found in its rightful box labelled, "State Flags". Best, David L. Rickman Follow my progress as I recreate the Soviet Lunniy Korabl spaceship in 1:5 scale at http://lunniykorabl.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: David Portree To: robert Cc: fpspace Sent: Thu, Sep 29, 2011 5:05 pm Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files Robert: It's an interesting situation. I tend to come at it from the science side, but it's heartening that people become enthusiastic about finding their missing samples and displaying them. Thank you for the additional details. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files From: robert at collectspace.com Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 09:36:22 -0500 CC: fpspace at friends-partners.org; ljk4 at msn.com To: dsfportree at hotmail.com David, I don't think it's the physical quantity of material that is important here. Yes, the large majority of Apollo-returned samples are safe in vaults in Texas and New Mexico, but most of those samples will never be seen by the public. And while NASA loans out a good number of educational and museum displays, the latter using much larger samples, they do not reach out to all the nations that were included with the goodwill gifts. The active search is primarily being conducted by students, an activity that gives them experience in a number of areas of research. That alone, I would argue, merits the effort. And I can share from personal experience that may of the nations and states that have recovered or relocated their moon rocks as a result of this effort have been very appreciative to do so, and those who have proudly displayed their goodwill moon rocks have been grateful for the additional attention being drawn to their exhibits. - Robert -- Robert Pearlman, Editor collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts http://www.collectspace.com/ Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE On Sep 29, 2011, at 9:19 AM, David Portree wrote: Robert: Thanks for that info. Those are tiny, tiny samples! No wonder they get lost. I bet the educator samples I've handled amount to more material than that. So, if we scraped all these samples together in one place, they'd amount to perhaps to maybe one-fifth of a kilogram? So, only about as much material as would fit in the palm of my hand is missing out of more than 800 pounds returned to Earth. Doesn't seem to be worth much fuss. I have no reading on the missing researcher samples. The hope is that they are not in fact missing and will turn up as they are called back, or so I am given to understand. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > From: robert at collectspace.com > Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:26:12 -0500 > CC: fpspace at friends-partners.org; ljk4 at msn.com > To: dsfportree at hotmail.com > > The Apollo 17 gifts are 1.142 grams each, all cut from the same rock. The Apollo 11 gifts are 0.05 grams each, in the form of four small pieces. > > It is generally accepted that the dollar value of any Apollo-recovered moon rock, assuming one could be legally auctioned, would be much more than the going rate for lunar meteorites or even Soviet-returned samples because of the history they represent. Given the prices paid for moon dust-stained artifacts, it is a reasonable estimation to place a rock (of any size) at seven figures, especially if the first to be sold. > > -- > Robert Pearlman, Editor > collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts > http://www.collectspace.com/ > Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE > Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE > > On Sep 28, 2011, at 11:21 PM, David Portree wrote: > > > Robert: > > > > I have it from a good source that there are significant issues with the research sample accounting, and an effort is being made to call samples back - especially those that have been loaned out for years and are overseas. The loaned research samples are almost all small - thin sections and the like - but they occur in significant numbers - "thousands" was the word my source used, though I wouldn't quote that figure (it seems excessive to me). Not only lunar samples are involved - also meteorites - but the lunar samples have generated the most concern. > > > > How big are the gift samples? I was given to understand that they are very small - 10 grams or so. > > > > The educator samples I've seen are just a pinch of dust embedded in a clear plastic disk. I know that some of those have disappeared - one was lost in a fire in a UPS van, though the sample curation staffer who told me about that incident had his doubts. > > > > I suppose that the inflated dollar value would have something to do with the Apollo association? I guess talk of multi-million-dollar samples being lost makes them seem more important than they are. I've never heard a scientist begrudge the political gesture of the gift samples. > > > > A few years ago I had the opportunity to visit with the samples in Houston during their semi-annual security check, when they unpack a portion of the rocks, cores, and other samples and check them against their records. I had to dress up in a bunny suit, but it was worth it. The nitrogen cabinets were full of rocks. I was impressed by their many colors, and also by the glassy coating on many of the rocks formed by microscopic meteoroid impacts. It wasn't too hard to see what part of the rocks had been below the surface when they were collected. They didn't look earthly, and I don't think that was a subjective impression. The message here is, the lost samples amount to a tiny fraction of the total. > > > > David S. F. Portree > > > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > > dportree at usgs.gov > > > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > From: robert at collectspace.com > > Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 10:23:05 -0500 > > CC: ljk4 at msn.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > > To: dsfportree at hotmail.com > > > > David, > > > > That particular version of the Arkansas goodwill moon rock story does have a few issues, but it is more or less correct. > > > > Foreign nations, states and U.S. properties received two lunar sample gifts: > > > > Where Today are the Apollo 11 Lunar Sample Displays > > http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_apollo11.html > > > > Where Today are the Apollo 17 Goodwill Moon Rocks > > http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_goodwill.html > > > > Among just the U.S. state-gifted moon rocks, 15 of the 50 Apollo 11 gifts and 10 of the 50 Apollo gifts are still missing (and by missing I mean not found, they may be in fact missing/stolen but they may just be where no one doing the searching has thought to look yet). The majority of foreign-gifted samples have yet to be found. > > > > I would personally peg the dollar-value on these samples, if they could be sold legally, between $1 and $3 million, but $5 million was the asking price by the Miami businessman who "purchased" Honduras' sample, which kicked off this whole search. > > > > As for the loaned samples for study, my understanding is that NASA keeps a much more exact (though not public) accounting of where they are. They didn't track the goodwill samples because once given away, they were no longer U.S. government property. > > > > -- > > Robert Pearlman, Editor > > collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts > > http://www.collectspace.com/ > > Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE > > Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE > > > > On Sep 28, 2011, at 8:47 AM, David Portree wrote: > > > > I don't think that this story is substantially correct. Even where it is correct, it is probably not important. > > > > The fragments distributed to heads of state and governors are very small. They originated in one rock, which Cernan and Schmitt collected for the purpose. The dollar value of these slivers of the moon is debatable, but if one were a fragment of a meteorite that originated on the moon, it would be worth nowhere near $10 million. > > > > I think that the "only 60 can be located" figure is suspect. I wish I knew the author's source. > > > > It would have been nice if she had noted that these moon rocks are tiny, taken from a randomly collected breccia with a mass of a kilogram or less, and do not count as part of the 400 or so kilograms stored at Houston, San Antonio, and (if my memory is correct) White Sands. > > > > There is a real story concerning the lunar samples, and that is that thousands - typically very small, but taken together a sizable quantity - have been loaned out all over the world to researchers and then inadequately tracked. Some fraction of those are probably lost, and some fraction of those lost probably constitute unique material. > > > > David S. F. Portree > > > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > > dportree at usgs.gov > > > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > > > > > > From: ljk4 at msn.com > > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > > Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:52:50 -0400 > > Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > > > http://lunarnetworks.blogspot.com/2011/09/arkansas-lunar-sample-found-packed-away.html > > > > Friday, September 23, 2011 > > > > > > Arkansas Apollo 17 commemorative lunar sample found packed away among Bill Clinton's files > > > > Diane Alter > > > > A long lost, highly valuable moon rock, bought back by Apollo 17 has been found in former U.S. president Bill Clinton's files. > > > > The rock, missing for 30 years, was one of 50 presented to each state after the 1972 space mission. It was presented to Clinton's predecessor Gov. David Pryor in 1976. The rock hung in the governor's office that was later occupied by Clinton. The rock was apparently packed away with Clinton's memorabilia after it fell off its plaque. > > > > The moon rock is estimated to be worth $10 million. NASA says that few of the rocks, which were encased in acrylic and mounted on a plaque with the intended recipient's flag, can be located. > > > > The rock has been missing since 1980. Reports are that the rock fell off the plaque and was mistakenly packed away with gubernatorial papers belonging to Clinton. The archivist knew exactly what is was when he stumbled upon it. > > > > Three months after Apollo 17 returned home, then-president Richard Nixon ordered that fragments of the rocks carried home by astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmidt be distributed among 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its territories. When presented to the states as gifts, they became property of the state they were donated to. Only 60 can be located. The rest are said to have been stolen or lost. > > > > The rock is currently safely stored in a library safe. > > Posted by Joel Raupe at 10:53 PM > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.orghttp://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > _______________________________________________ > > FPSPACE mailing list > > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > > > > _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pao.ulivi at gmail.com Fri Sep 30 01:18:32 2011 From: pao.ulivi at gmail.com (Paolo Ulivi) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 07:18:32 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Chinese space station objectives Message-ID: just wondering: did the Chinese ever discuss the use of their space station (the modular one, not Tiangong)? microgravity research (do they need such a large station)? Earth observation? experience in long-duration flights? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Fri Sep 30 06:36:06 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES ) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 10:36:06 +0000 Subject: [FPSPACE] Fwd: Mars Express discovers water supersaturation in the Martian atmosphere; Hubble: Galaxy caught blowing bubbles Message-ID: ---------- Sent from AT&T Wireless using Windows Live Hotmail -----Original Message----- From: SciTech.editorial at esa.int Sent: 9/30/2011 8:51:54 AM To: ljk4 at msn.com Subject: Mars Express discovers water supersaturation in the Martian atmosphere; Hubble: Galaxy caught blowing bubbles MISSION NEWS AS OF FRIDAY 30 SEPTEMBER 2011 + ESA ORBITER DISCOVERS WATER SUPERSATURATION IN THE MARTIAN ATMOSPHERE New analysis of data sent back by the SPICAM spectrometer on board ESA's Mars Express spacecraft has revealed for the first time that the planet's atmosphere is supersaturated with water vapour. This surprising discovery has major implications for understanding the Martian water cycle and the historical evolution of the atmosphere. http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=49342 + GALAXY CAUGHT BLOWING BUBBLES [HEIC1114] Hubble's famous images of galaxies typically show elegant spirals or soft-edged ellipses. But these forms are only representative of large galaxies. Smaller galaxies like the dwarf irregular galaxy Holmberg II come in many shapes and types that are harder to classify. The most recently released image from the Hubble Space Telescope captures this galaxy's indistinct shape, which is punctuated by huge glowing bubbles of gas. http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=49361 =================================================== KEEP IN TOUCH + SCITECH RSS Subscribe to SciTech's RSS (Really Simple Syndication) feed to get the latest updates delivered directly to your desktop. http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=37599 + SCITECH SCREENSAVER Don't forget to download the SciTech Screensaver a multi-facetted application that allows you to keep abreast of status reports, news and announcements of events taking place at ESA Science. http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=34651 =================================================== To change your subscription options, or unsubscribe at any time, follow the link here: http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/subscribe/ Please contact us through the SciTech Website: http://sci.esa.int =================================================== ================================================================================================ This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or addressees only. The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole or in part) of its content is not permitted. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the sender. Please consider the environment before printing this email. ================================================================================================= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomsona at flash.net Fri Sep 30 08:39:43 2011 From: thomsona at flash.net (Allen Thomson) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 05:39:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Wenchang and typhoons Message-ID: <1317386383.10611.YahooMailClassic@web80204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hopefully the new spaceport and theme park are going to be sturdily designed; the launch pads seem to be close to shore. OTOH, the situation is not unlike KSC, which has gotten along with similar weather circumstances. http://blogs.voanews.com/breaking-news/2011/09/29/deadly-typhoon-strikes-southern-chinese-island/ "Typhoon Nesat struck the southern Chinese island of Hainan Thursday afternoon, after pounding Hong Kong with heavy winds and rains earlier in the day. "Forecasters say the storm hit Wenchang city with sustained winds up to 150 kilometers an hour, making it the strongest typhoon to hit China this year. Xinhua news agency said almost 58,000 people were evacuated from low-lying areas ahead of Hainan's arrival." ??? From cdomashnev at acm.org Fri Sep 30 11:54:13 2011 From: cdomashnev at acm.org (Constantine Domashnev) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 11:54:13 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Chinese space station module launched successfully In-Reply-To: <4e8489e4.f154ec0a.5ae2.7b88@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <81EDD484574B48189EDED142511082F7@Tosha> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-15123830 30 September 2011 Last updated at 08:44 ET 'America the Beautiful' accompanies China rocket launch China's state TV accompanied coverage of the historic launch of the country's first space laboratory with a patriotic US song, America the Beautiful. ... From ljk4 at msn.com Thu Sep 1 00:49:57 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 00:49:57 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] FW: JPL: Jupiter-bound Space Probe Captures Earth & Moon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 21:33:38 -0400 > Subject: JPL: Jupiter-bound Space Probe Captures Earth & Moon > From: rick.fienberg at aas.org > To: Rick.Fienberg at aas.org > > THE FOLLOWING RELEASE WAS RECEIVED FROM THE JET PROPULSION LABORATORY > IN PASADENA, CALIFORNIA, AND IS FORWARDED FOR YOUR INFORMATION. > (FORWARDING DOES NOT IMPLY ENDORSEMENT BY THE AMERICAN ASTRONOMICAL > SOCIETY.) Rick Fienberg, AAS Press Officer: rick.fienberg at aas.org, +1 > 202-328-2010 x116. > > August 30, 2011 > > Contacts: > DC Agle > Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. > +1 818-393-9011 > agle at jpl.nasa.gov > > Dwayne Brown > NASA Headquarters, Washington > +1 202-358-1726 > dwayne.c.brown at nasa.gov > > Text & Images: > http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2011-271 > > JUPITER-BOUND SPACE PROBE > CAPTURES EARTH AND MOON > > On its way to the biggest planet in the solar system -- Jupiter, > NASA?s Juno spacecraft took time to capture its home planet and its > natural satellite -- the Moon. > > ?This is a remarkable sight people get to see all too rarely,? said > Scott Bolton, Juno principal investigator from the Southwest Research > Institute in San Antonio. ?This view of our planet shows how Earth > looks from the outside, illustrating a special perspective of our role > and place in the universe. We see a humbling yet beautiful view of > ourselves.? > > The image was taken by the spacecraft?s camera, JunoCam, on Aug. 26 > when the spacecraft was about 6 million miles (9.66 million > kilometers) away. The image was taken as part of the mission team?s > checkout of the Juno spacecraft. The team is conducting its initial > detailed checks on the spacecraft?s instruments and subsystems after > its launch on Aug. 5. > > Juno covered the distance from Earth to the Moon (about 250,000 miles, > or 402,000 kilometers) in less than one day?s time. It will take the > spacecraft another five years and 1,740 million miles (2,800 million > kilometers) to complete the journey to Jupiter. The spacecraft will > orbit the planet?s poles 33 times and use its eight science > instruments to probe beneath the gas giant?s obscuring cloud cover to > learn more about its origins, structure, atmosphere and magnetosphere, > and look for a potential solid planetary core. > > The solar-powered Juno spacecraft lifted off from Cape Canaveral Air > Force Station in Florida at 9:25 a.m. PDT (12:25 p.m. EDT) on Aug. 5 > to begin its five-year journey to Jupiter. > > # # # > > JPL manages the Juno mission for the principal investigator, Scott > Bolton, of Southwest Research Institute in San Antonio. The Juno > mission is part of the New Frontiers Program managed at NASA?s > Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Ala. Lockheed Martin Space > Systems, Denver, built the spacecraft. JPL is a division of the > California Institute of Technology in Pasadena. > > More information about Juno: > * http://www.nasa.gov/juno > * http://missionjuno.swri.edu > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > If you do not wish to receive press releases that are forwarded to the > news media by the American Astronomical Society, please unsubscribe by > replying accordingly to any incoming press release, or send e-mail to > rick.fienberg at aas.org. Requests for referrals to experts on astronomy > and space science should be sent to the same address. Rick Fienberg, > AAS Press Officer, +1 202-328-2010 x116, @AAS_Press (Twitter). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Thu Sep 1 00:51:27 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 00:51:27 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] FW: Centauri Dreams - Entering the Age of Sail In-Reply-To: <20cf303f6a54ac5ced04abbdb2ed@google.com> References: <20cf303f6a54ac5ced04abbdb2ed@google.com> Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 19:05:53 +0000 Subject: Centauri Dreams From: gilster at mindspring.com To: ljk4 at msn.com Centauri Dreams Centauri Dreams Entering the Age of Sail Posted: 30 Aug 2011 04:44 AM PDT I see that the new agenda for the 100 Year Starship Study symposium has now been posted. The meeting will be held in Orlando in about a month, set up along a number of parallel tracks from interstellar destinations to propulsion options and habitats, a wide-ranging set of sessions that will allow many in the far-flung interstellar community to exchange ideas in person for the first time. DARPA?s intention is to spur research and select an organization that will sustain and develop interstellar ideas over the next century, an exciting long-term prospect indeed. That interstellar flight demands long-term thinking should be obvious given the state of propulsion research today. Over the last sixty years, numerous ideas on how to drive a vehicle to a substantial percentage of the speed of light have been advanced, but almost all of these remain no more than concepts in journals. We?re not remotely at the stage where we can choose a single option as the likely propulsion choice for development. Rather, we?re theorizing and experimenting and seeing where many different strands of thinking lead, all of which takes me to the solar sail. Jim Essig was kind enough to pass along a recent story in Science News dealing with current experimentation and planning on solar sail ideas. Here we?re dealing with a technology that, unlike almost all the other interstellar options, has actually flown, even if we?re still in the preliminary phases of evaluating the technology?s performance. One day it may be that we?ll push enormous sails with laser beams or microwaves, but for now we?re talking about small attempts to measure the effect of momentum transfer by solar photons to push a spacecraft. Image: A close-up of the fully deployed IKAROS sail. Credit: JAXA. The Japanese success with the IKAROS sail has been marvelous to watch as the 20-meter sail became operational in interplanetary space, demonstrating an innovative liquid crystal technology that allowed mission scientists to change the sail?s reflectivity and affect its course. Bear in mind that IKAROS is to be the first of a family of Japanese sails, the next model being 50-meters across and intended for launch to Jupiter and the asteroids. That mission will focus on propulsion systems that combine the solar sail with an ion drive for interplanetary journeys. We?ve talked extensively in these pages about IKAROS as well as NASA?s NanoSail-D, the latter whimsically called LunchSat because the budget-strapped team could only find time to work on it during lunch. Nonetheless, the doughty engineers under Dean Alhorn built two 3-meter sails that fit into a CubeSat, attempting to launch the first without success because of the failure of the Falcon 1 rocket that would have taken it into space. The second was launched last November, went silent for weeks, and suddenly deployed and reported in for duty. Alhorn has now set his sights on a larger sail to follow on to NanoSail-D, which will re-enter the atmosphere within months. The NASA effort had downsized since the days when the agency was testing two 20-meter x 20-meter solar sails at a research facility in Ohio [although see Jack Crawford's comment below], but the fact that NanoSail-D could become operational is a testament to the enthusiasm of scientists working the mission. And the new sail possibility is a 38-meter x 38-meter sail demonstrator, as discussed in this news release from the Office of the Chief Technologist. The Science News story is well worth your time for its encapsuled analysis of where we are in solar sail development. We now look toward the Planetary Society, where Lou Friedman brings his own extensive sail experience to the building of three potential designs. From the story: Closest in concept to the original grand dreams about solar sailing, yet freighted with the memory of a recent failure, is the LightSail project of the Planetary Society. Friedman, its architect, has seen pretty much everything in the world of solar sailing; he worked on the original Halley proposal in the 1970s and spearheaded the society?s drive to fly a privately funded sail in the early 2000s. That effort, paid for mainly by an entertainment company led by Carl Sagan?s widow, ended with a splash in 2005 when the Russian rocket it was supposed to ride from a nuclear submarine failed to reach orbit. After licking his wounds, Friedman decided to work with NanoSail-D in its initial stages. That restored his enthusiasm and inspired LightSail. ?We got so interested in the design that we said we?ll go further: We?ll instrument the craft and build in attitude control and a telemetry system,? says Friedman. Thanks to CubeSats, the sail could be built for less money than the society?s last, failed attempt. Image: Chris Biddy (left) and Lou Friedman at Stellar Exploration (San Luis Obispo, CA) for the first full-scale deployment test of the sail on LightSail-1. Credit: The Planetary Society Credit: The Planetary Society. Like Alhorn?s NASA team, the Planetary Society is building two sails in case something goes wrong, and envisions future versions that will not only achieve higher Earth orbit but travel to the L1 Lagrangian point between the Earth and the Sun. Other sail projects to watch with interest include a consortium from the University of Surrey and aerospace firm Astrium, an aerospace subsidiary of the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) that is building a 5-meter sail for CubeSat deployment for launch some time in 2012. The same team is studying sails as a way to deorbit satellites, removing space debris that poses a collision hazard in orbit ? this is also part of the thinking behind the NanoSail-D concept. And we?re still not through. The German space agency DLR and the European Space Agency are working on a series of solar sails called Gossamer that would experiment with larger sails as technology demonstrators of increasing size and complexity, while engineers at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign are studying new deployment methods that involve spinning deployment of sail blades that could one day lead to a spinning sail with rotating blades as large as 10 kilometers long. As Science News points out, what will move the solar sail idea forward is not just this early experimentation, but the follow-on missions that target specific tasks that are optimized for sails and defy other propulsion techniques. In such ways does a promisng space technology begin to get the shakeout in space it needs to mature. Image: ESA & DLR Project Gossamer in orbit. Credit: DLR. You are subscribed to email updates from Centauri Dreams To stop receiving these emails, you may unsubscribe now. Email delivery powered by Google Google Inc., 20 West Kinzie, Chicago IL USA 60610 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From astronautix at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 04:22:37 2011 From: astronautix at gmail.com (Mark Wade) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 10:22:37 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Baikonur - the Film Message-ID: I haven't seen this film, but saw some clips on arte last night. It looked charming; some of it shot at the cosmodrome: http://www.baikonur.com/ ?Whatever falls from heaven, you may keep.? So goes the unwritten law of the Kazakh steppes. A law avidly adhered to by the inhabitants of a small village, who collect the space debris that falls downrange from the nearby Baikonur space station. The last two youthful members of the village are the radio operator Iskander, known as Gagarin, and the spirited Nazira. While Nazira finds it increasing difficult to conceal her love for Iskander by means of her unconventional behaviour, Iskander is evidently not only crazy about Baikonur and the vastness of outer space, but also deeply smitten with the beautiful French astronaut Julie Mah?, whose journey to the stars he wistfully follows on television. When Julie literally ?falls from heaven? in a small space capsule, it?s Iskander who finds her unconscious. Since Julie can no longer remember anything, Iskander is able to pretend that they are engaged to be married, turning the ancient law of the steppes to his own advantage. But even the most romantic lie cannot remain undiscovered forever. And soon ?Gagarin? no longer knows where he really belongs nor, more importantly, to whom... -- Mark Wade Encyclopedia Astronautica http://www.astronautix.com/ astronautix at gmail.com From kgottschalk at uwc.ac.za Thu Sep 1 09:58:15 2011 From: kgottschalk at uwc.ac.za (Keith Gottschalk) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 15:58:15 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] "de-manned"...an alternative view (humor) In-Reply-To: <4e5e5846.0295e50a.40c8.ffff8b46@mx.google.com> References: <4e5e5846.0295e50a.40c8.ffff8b46@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4E5FAB97020000A6000111F7@uwc.ac.za> I suggest "temporary evacuation". But this is a worst-case scenario. I am confident that between Roskosmos & SpaceX, ISS shall triumph! -Keith >>> On 2011/08/31 at 05:50 PM, in message <4e5e5846.0295e50a.40c8.ffff8b46 at mx.google.com>, "Peter Pesavento" wrote: Well, It*s just jargon*. Extra-vehicular activity*. = space walk De-manned = unoccupied De-tank = empty Or maybe they were thinking*.. astronauts and cosmonauts are *Da Man**..as in, *U Da Man !!!* (with the index fingers of both hands pointed at the person or persons in question) while they are flying in the heavens over our heads* Sorry. Can*t help myself. Semantics aside, it*s a serious thing if the ISS will be vacated/left/emptied/departed from/deserted/abandoned/refrain from being used/retreated from with all due haste/absconded from/beat it/break away from/clear out from/cut out/bug out/decamp/ ditch/emigrate/escape/exit/flee/forsake/give up the ship/go away from/head out from/move out/pull out/quit/relinquish/remove themselves from/retire from/ride off from/ride away from/say goodbye to/scram/split/split in quintuple time/take a hike from/vamoose/withdraw/cede occupation/forbear for an extended period/hand over to the vacuum/quit/terminate the mission I guess most of these sound unpalatable to NASA, so *de-man* sounds appropriately NASA-ish*.or, as to be interpreted that the grouping of *U Da Man !!!!* in the heavens have to bug out with all alacrity*. LOL J J -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- All Email originating from UWC is covered by disclaimer http://www.uwc.ac.za/emaildisclaimer From ljk4 at msn.com Thu Sep 1 12:52:51 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES ) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 16:52:51 +0000 Subject: [FPSPACE] Fwd: Announcements: Phobos-Soil (Phobos-Grunt) Guest Investigator AO; Suzaku 7th European AO Message-ID: ---------- Sent from AT&T Wireless using Windows Live Hotmail -----Original Message----- From: SciTech.editorial at esa.int Sent: 9/1/2011 4:35:47 PM To: ljk4 at msn.com Subject: Announcements: Phobos-Soil (Phobos-Grunt) Guest Investigator AO; Suzaku 7th European AO ANNOUNCEMENTS Two Announcements of Opportunity are issued today, 1 September 2011: + PHOBOS-SOIL (PHOBOS-GRUNT) ANNOUNCEMENT OF OPPORTUNITY FOR GUEST INVESTIGATORS This Announcement of Opportunity solicits research proposals for scientific analysis of data, or theoretical and/or modelling studies supported by data, from the Russian Phobos-Soil (Phobos-Grunt) mission, through participation in the Phobos-Soil Guest Investigator Programme. Scientists from the Member States of ESA and from the Russian Federation are invited to respond. The deadline for proposal submissions is 30 November 2011. http://sci.esa.int/Phobos-Soil-AO + SUZAKU 7TH ANNOUNCEMENT OF OPPORTUNITY The Seventh European Announcement of Opportunity for observations to be performed with Suzaku between April 2012 and March 2013 is now open. Scientists belonging to institutions within ESA Member States are invited to respond. The deadline for receipt of proposals is 10 November 2011 at 16:30 CET. http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=49106 =================================================== KEEP IN TOUCH + SCITECH RSS Subscribe to SciTech's RSS (Really Simple Syndication) feed to get the latest updates delivered directly to your desktop. http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=37599 + SCITECH SCREENSAVER Don't forget to download the SciTech Screensaver a multi-facetted application that allows you to keep abreast of status reports, news and announcements of events taking place at ESA Science. http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=34651 =================================================== To change your subscription options, or unsubscribe at any time, follow the link here: http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/subscribe/ Please contact us through the SciTech Website: http://sci.esa.int =================================================== ================================================================================================ This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or addressees only. The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole or in part) of its content is not permitted. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the sender. Please consider the environment before printing this email. ================================================================================================= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dstdba at post4.tele.dk Thu Sep 1 14:34:16 2011 From: dstdba at post4.tele.dk (Jens Kieffer-Olsen) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 20:34:16 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] demanned In-Reply-To: <4E5E141D.2080901@telenet.be> References: <4E5E141D.2080901@telenet.be> Message-ID: <003801cc68d5$c36ff980$4a4fec80$@tele.dk> Yes Zeger, 'demanned' is not just an issue of NASA slang, but of sexist NASA slang! Let's suggest instead that NASA use the word 'deoccupied'! An example of the use of similar slang may be found at Tane's blog http://www.myspace.com/tane_1/blog/241361559 from where I quote: "Why Hawaii needs the US to deoccupy its country". -- Jens Kieffer-Olsen Slagelse, Denmark -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: Zeger Nuyens [mailto:dokter.nuyens at telenet.be] Sendt: 31. august 2011 13:00 Til: fpspace at friends-partners.org Emne: [FPSPACE] demanned I must admit that when I saw "demanned" I was thinking of something completely different... Zeger Nuyens > How about the perfectly valid English word "unoccupied"? > > Phillip Clark From pjp961 at svol.net Thu Sep 1 14:55:43 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 14:55:43 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called here "Shenlong" Message-ID: <4e5fd53f.41132a0a.502b.0087@mx.google.com> You can read about it here at the website of the International Assessment and Strategy Center.. Article by Richard Fisher (contributor to a number of periodicals, including Defense Technology International, Aviation Week, and Foreign Policy) Title: "China's Space Plane Program" (Has illustrations and video captures) Published July 27, 2011 http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.253/pub_detail.asp If anyone who has expertise would like to comment on what Fisher is saying, please hold forth -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From routierx at tpg.com.au Thu Sep 1 17:01:36 2011 From: routierx at tpg.com.au (Brett & Sue) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 07:01:36 +1000 Subject: [FPSPACE] demanned In-Reply-To: <003801cc68d5$c36ff980$4a4fec80$@tele.dk> References: <4E5E141D.2080901@telenet.be> <003801cc68d5$c36ff980$4a4fec80$@tele.dk> Message-ID: <001401cc68ea$57b11200$07133600$@tpg.com.au> De-crewed? -----Original Message----- From: fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org [mailto:fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org] On Behalf Of Jens Kieffer-Olsen Sent: Friday, 2 September 2011 4:34 AM To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] demanned Yes Zeger, 'demanned' is not just an issue of NASA slang, but of sexist NASA slang! Let's suggest instead that NASA use the word 'deoccupied'! An example of the use of similar slang may be found at Tane's blog http://www.myspace.com/tane_1/blog/241361559 from where I quote: "Why Hawaii needs the US to deoccupy its country". -- Jens Kieffer-Olsen Slagelse, Denmark -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: Zeger Nuyens [mailto:dokter.nuyens at telenet.be] Sendt: 31. august 2011 13:00 Til: fpspace at friends-partners.org Emne: [FPSPACE] demanned I must admit that when I saw "demanned" I was thinking of something completely different... Zeger Nuyens > How about the perfectly valid English word "unoccupied"? > > Phillip Clark _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace From davidlrickman at aol.com Fri Sep 2 01:09:45 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 01:09:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Cosmonaut Winch on Lunniy Korabl Message-ID: <8CE3745AA0D9623-1268-47B93@webmail-d137.sysops.aol.com> Hello, In the "Cabin Module" section of Filin's "Memories of our Lunar Ship" there is a brief reference to a winch being invented to haul a Lunar Cosmonaut back into the LK in case they lost their ability to perform. Does anybody know if this winch was actually constructed, or was this just one of many designs that never made it off the drawing board? Thanks in advance! Best Regards, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From phillipclark at btinternet.com Fri Sep 2 02:21:31 2011 From: phillipclark at btinternet.com (Phillip Clark) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 07:21:31 +0100 Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called here "Shenlong" In-Reply-To: <4e5fd53f.41132a0a.502b.0087@mx.google.com> References: <4e5fd53f.41132a0a.502b.0087@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I am sure that there are those who will howl in anguish about the possible Chinese shuttle being duel-role civil/military, totally ignoring the fact that this is how the US shuttle was intended to operate. I think that it is reasonable for the Chinese to be THINKING about reuseable launch vehicles, but I am sure that Shenzhou and its derivatives will remain the focus of China's piloted space programme for the next decade and a half at least. Phillip Clark ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pesavento To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 7:55 PM Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported,called here "Shenlong" You can read about it here at the website of the International Assessment and Strategy Center.. Article by Richard Fisher (contributor to a number of periodicals, including Defense Technology International, Aviation Week, and Foreign Policy) Title: "China's Space Plane Program" (Has illustrations and video captures) Published July 27, 2011 http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.253/pub_detail.asp If anyone who has expertise would like to comment on what Fisher is saying, please hold forth ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BKLong at yandex.ru Fri Sep 2 07:57:36 2011 From: BKLong at yandex.ru (=?koi8-r?B?4c7E0sXF1yDzxdLHxco=?=) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 15:57:36 +0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] ICBM Message-ID: <54521314964656@web74.yandex.ru> hi all http://cosmopark.ru/jbookh.htm my book is still avalilable if one knows how to use e-mail. Price is 500rub without delivery. experience show that it reach Europe or Israel about 20 days by air mail. Sergey V. Andreev From ljk4 at msn.com Fri Sep 2 08:06:59 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES ) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 12:06:59 +0000 Subject: [FPSPACE] Fwd: [New post] Course Syllabus for "Spaceflight and Society: Exploring the History of the Final Frontier" Message-ID: ---------- Sent from AT&T Wireless using Windows Live Hotmail -----Original Message----- From: Roger Launius's Blog Sent: 9/2/2011 11:53:41 AM To: ljk4 at msn.com Subject: [New post] Course Syllabus for "Spaceflight and Society: Exploring the History of the Final Frontier" [http://0.gravatar.com/avatar/488baba4b54ec638fa19eeebd09b6b69?s=48&d=identicon&r=G] Course Syllabus for "Spaceflight and Society: Exploring the History of the Final Frontier" launiusr | September 2, 2011 at 11:53 am | Tags: 1960s, American exceptionalism, Apollo, Ares I, Buzz Aldrin, challenger accident, columbia accident, Department of Defense, Earth science, global warming, History, international relations, International Space Station, JFK, MLB, Moon, NASA, presidential power, public perceptions, public policy, space science, space shuttle, U.S. Civil Space, Wernher von Braun | Categories: Apollo, Applications Satellites, Cold War Competition, Earth Science, History, International Space Station, Lunar Exploration, Personal, Politics, Science, Space, Space Shuttle | URL: http://wp.me/pwYu1-C3 Beginning on August 31 I started teaching as an adjunct instructor at the Johns Hopkins University. The course is "Spaceflight and Society: Exploring the History of the Final Frontier." Only one class meeting thus far, but it has been great fun. I am posting the syllabus before to see where I am coming from with the this class. There are a lot of readings, and I believe these are some of the best available on their individual subjects, but if you have suggestions for alternatives I'd very much like to hear from you. Spaceflight and Society: Exploring the History of the Final Frontier BASIC INFORMATION: * Class meets Wednesdays, 1:30-3:50 p.m.; this means: 140 minutes (break will be included) * JHU classes start August 29th, so our first class will be Aug. 31st * The only holiday off will be???Wednesday, November 23 * November 30th is the last day???of class * This means: 13 class sessions * Students will then have a week off * December 7-16 are final examination days ??? COURSE DESCRIPTION: This course explores the history of spaceflight, emphasizing its civil component, but also including national security and commercial activities, and the interactions among all components of spaceflight around the world. It represents an examination of the origins, evolution, current status, and future prospects of U.S. space policies and programs. It will cover civilian, military, and national security space programs and the space activities of the private sector, and the interactions among these four sectors of space activity. This examination will be cast in the context of the space activities of other countries, and of international cooperation and competition in space. The goal of the course is to give the student an exposure to the debates and decisions that have shaped U.S. efforts in space to date, and to the policy issues that must be addressed in order to determine the future goals, content, pace, and organization of U.S. space activities, both public and private.??? Read this syllabus and all other handouts carefully. They are your guide for this course, and they spell out the work you have to do. This course meets every Wednesday, 1:30-3:50 p.m.; we will plan on one break in the middle of this time slot GRADING: Grades will be calculated according to the following scores: ???97-100 = A+ 94-96 = A 90-93 = A- 87-89 = B+ 84-86 = B 80-83 = B- 77-79 = C+ 74-76 = C 70-73 = C- 67-69 = D+ 64-66 = D 60-63 = D+ ?????? 0-59 = F REQUIREMENTS: There will be two literature review essays. In addition, we will hold periodic discussions in which your participation is required. The formula for your grade will be as follows:??? 45% 1st literature review essay + 45% 2d literature review essay + 10% (class discussion) = 100% 10%: Attendance and participation will be based on attendance and participation in sections. We will take attendance at each session. In addition, each week we will ask students which readings they plan on undertaking for the next week. We will take action to ensure that each reading is covered by some part of the class and the discussion we will call on students to summarize???and discuss these???articles. 90% Literature Review Essays: There will be two review essays of literature assigned in class. Each review will consist of not less than 1,200 nor more than 2,000 words, and include a discussion of the assigned readings that you undertook in the sessions each week. Each essay must state the key issues raised in the readings, comparing them one to another, and synthesizing how and why they make a contribution to understanding the subject. The readings reviewed will be among those recommended in major sections of the course. These review essays will be completed in 12-point Times and be double-spaced with 1.0 inch margins, page-numbering, and in-paragraph citations. The student's name and contact information must be included at the beginning of the essay. Each essay is worth 45 points.??? Late Review Essays: Review essays turned in after the due date will be downgraded one letter grade per week that it is not submitted. Papers more than two weeks late will not be graded and the student will no credit for this work. Please be advised that only in the direst of situations an "incomplete" may be assigned; as I will be on campus only for the fall semester it will require an exceptional rationale to warrant an incomplete. RULES FOR LECTURES/PLENARIES: There will be no electronic devices used in lectures, except for laptops, on which you are allowed to take notes. Laptops are widely misused in lectures and should you be caught using one in any other way than to take notes, your use privileges will be rescinded. Part of the educational experience is to develop your ability to listen to lectures and to extract the important ideas through note-taking. This is an important skill that you need to develop not only now but also for your future career. As a result, only the outlines of the key concepts and discussion questions will be available in the study guide on the instructor's web site. Part of your grade will be based on your ability to listen and organize oral material into coherent ideas. People who are good at developing this skill will have a head start in their future careers.??? If you miss a lecture, you may ask for a copy of the notes from other students in the class. The notes may not be posted on a web site, made available for file sharing, or distributed in any medium (print or electronic). The only exception is to provide a print copy to one or two students who have been absent from class, unless you first have approval from the instructor. The content of the lectures are the intellectual property of the instructor, and they are not for public distribution. If you loan your notes to someone else, you should indicate who you let use the notes. ACADEMIC DISHONESTY: Student-teacher relationships are built on trust. Students must trust that teachers have made appropriate decisions about the structure and content of a course, and teachers must trust that the assignments students turn in are their own. Acts that violate this trust undermine the educational enterprise. They contradict our very reason for academic activity, and students should note that penalties for dishonesty, in particular concerning plagiarism, can be quite harsh.??? There are several types of academic dishonesty that you should be aware of for this course: 1. Copying or cheating in any way will result in an F in the course. 2. Copying another source in a writing assignment, such as an article or another student's assignment, without using quotation marks and citing the reference is unacceptable. If the plagiarism is substantial (more than one sentence), you will lose one letter grade in the course for the first instance. You may receive an F in the course for additional instances. 3. Copying minor quotations of a phrase or half sentence or using the ideas of others without attribution. This is known as "patchwork plagiarism" and "theft of ideas." We tend to treat this problem with a warning at the beginning, but if it continues, you will lose one letter grade in the final grade for the course for each instance. When in doubt, add a footnote and a reference. 4. Posting yours or others' lectures notes from the plenary lectures on a web site or making them more generally available in any way (emailing, file sharing, print files, etc.), or making unauthorized recordings in any medium of the plenary lectures. You will receive an F in the course for this form of academic dishonesty, and instances that occur after the course is over will face a retrospective change of grade to an F. COURSE READINGS: * Howard E. McCurdy, Space and the American Imagination (Johns Hopkins University Press, 2010 second edition). Be sure to get this second edition, not the 1997 first edition. * An FTP site has been set up with all of the readings other than Space and the American Imagination.?????? CLASS SCHEDULE AND ASSIGNMENTS:??? August 31, 2011: Session 1?????? ????????????????????????????????? Why Go Into Space? Required Readings: * Howard E. McCurdy, Space and the American Imagination, pp. 11-59. Choose One of the Following: * William Sims Bainbridge, "Motivations for Space Exploration," Futures 41, Issue 8 (October 2009): 514-22. * Daniel F. Lester and Michael Robinson, "Visions of Exploration," Space Policy 25 (November 2009): 236-43. * John M. Logsdon, "A Sustainable Rationale for Human Spaceflight," Issues in Science and Technology, Winter 2004, pp. 31-34. * Asif A. Siddiqi, "Spaceflight in the National Imagination," in Steven J. Dick, ed., Remembering the Space Age: Proceedings of the Fiftieth Anniversary Conference, (NASA SP-2008-4703, 2008), pp. 17-35. September 7, 2011: Session 2?????????????????????????????? Origins of the Space Age Required Readings: * Howard E. McCurdy, Space and the American Imagination, pp. 60-92. Choose One of the Following: * Alexander C.T. Geppert, "Flights of Fancy: Outer Space and the European Imagination, 1923-1969," in Steven J. Dick, ed., Remembering the Space Age: Proceedings of the Fiftieth Anniversary Conference (NASA-SP-2008-4703, 2008), pp. 585-99. * J.D. Hunley, "The Enigma of Robert Goddard," Technology and Culture 36 (April 1995): 327-50. * J.R. McNeill, "Gigantic Follies? Human Exploration and the Space Age in Long-term Historical Perspective," in Steven J. Dick, ed., Remembering the Space Age: Proceedings of the Fiftieth Anniversary Conference (NASA-SP-2008-4703, 2008), pp. 3-16. * Asif A. Siddiqi, "The Rockets' Red Glare: Technology, Conflict, and Terror in the Soviet Union," Technology and Culture 44 (July 2003): 470-501 September 14, 2011: Session 3???????????????????????? National Security Space and its Discontents??? Required Readings: * Roger D. Launius, "National Security, Space, and the Course of Recent U.S.History," in Paul G. Gillespie and Grant T. Weller, eds., Harnessing the Heavens: National Defense Through Space. Chicago, IL: Imprint Publications, 2008), pp. 5-23. Choose One of the Following: * Dwayne A. Day, "Cover Stories and Hidden Agendas: Early American Space and National Security Policy," in Roger D. Launius, John M. Logsdon, and Robert W. Smith, Reconsidering Sputnik: Forty Years Since the Soviet Satellite (2000), pp. 161-195. * Peter L. Hays, "NASA and the Department of Defense: Enduring Themes in Three Key Areas," in Steven J. Dick and Roger D. Launius, eds., Critical Issues in the History of Spaceflight??? (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2006-4702, 2006);, pp. 199-238. * Matthew Mowthorpe, "U.S. Military Space Policy, 1945-92," Space Policy 18 (2002): 25-36. * Asif A. Siddiqi, "Soviet Space Power during the Cold War," in Paul G. Gillespie and Grant T. Weller, eds., Harnessing the Heavens: National Defense Through Space (Chicago, IL: Imprint Publications, 2008) pp. 135-50. ???September 21, 2011: Session 4???????????????????????? Spaceflight and American Culture Required Readings: * Howard E. McCurdy, Space and the American Imagination, pp. 308-24.??? Choose One of the Following: * Matthew H. Hersch, "High Fashion: The Women's Undergarment Industry and the Foundations of American Spaceflight," Fashion Theory 13, no. 3 (2009): 345-70. * Roger D. Launius, "Public Opinion Polls and Perceptions of U.S. Human Spaceflight." Space Policy 19 (August 2003): 163-75. * Peter Redfield, "Beneath a Modern Sky: Space Technology and Its Place on the Ground," Science, Technology & Human Values 21 (Summer 1996): 251-74. * Daniel Sage, "Giant Leaps and Forgotten Steps: NASA and the Performance of Gender," Sociological Review 57 (2009): 146-63. September 28, 2011: Session 5???????????????????????? The Evolution of Space Science??? Required Readings: * Howard E. McCurdy, Space and the American Imagination, pp. 120-53. Choose One of the Following: * W. Henry Lambright, NASA and the Environment: The Case of Ozone Depletion, Monograph in Aerospace History, No. 38 (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2005-4538, 2006). * ???Arturo Russo, "Europe's Path to Mars: The European Space Agency's Mars Express Mission," Historical Studies in the Natural Sciences 41 (Spring 2011): 123-78. * Robert W. Smith and W. Patrick McCray, "Beyond the Hubble Space Telescope: Early Development of the Next Generation Space Telescope," in H.A. Thronson, et al., eds., Astrophysics in the Next Decade: The James Webb Space Telescope and Concurrent Facilities (New York: Spring Science, 2009), pp. 31-50. * David J. Stevenson, "Planetary Science: A Space Odyssey," Science 287 (February 11, 2000): 997-99, 1001-03, 1005. October 5, 2011: Session 6????????? ????????????????????????????????? The Race to the Moon Required Readings: * Howard E. McCurdy, Space and the American Imagination, pp. 93-119.??? Choose One of the Following: * Andrew Chaikin, "Live from the Moon: The Societal Impact of Apollo," in Steven J. Dick and Roger D. Launius, eds., Societal Impact of Spaceflight (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2007-4801, 2007), pp. 53-66. * W.D. Kay, "Problem Definitions and Policy Contradictions: John F. Kennedy and the 'Space Race'," Policy Studies Journal 31???(March 2003): 53-72. * Roger D. Launius, "Perceptions of Apollo: Myth, Nostalgia, Memory or all of the Above?"???Space Policy 21 (May 2005): 129-39. * David A. Mindell, "Human and Machine in the History of Spaceflight," in Steven J. Dick and Roger D. Launius, ed., Critical Issues in the History of Spaceflight (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2006-4702, 2006), pp. 141-62. October 12, 2011: Session 7??????????????????????????????????????? What Do You Do for an Encore? Required Readings: * Howard E. McCurdy, Space and the American Imagination, pp. 154-80. Choose One of the Following: * John M. Logsdon, "The Space Shuttle Program: A Policy Failure?" Science 232, (May 30, 1986): 1099-1105. * Howard E. McCurdy, "Organization Decline: NASA and the Life Cycle of Bureaus," Public Administration Review 51 (July-August 1991): 308-15. * Hugh R. Slotten, "Satellite Communications, Globalization, and the Cold War," Technology and Culture 43 (April 2002): 315-50. * Brian Woods, "A Political History of NASA's Space Shuttle: The Development Years, 1972-1982," Sociological Review 57 (2009): 25-46. *** First Review Essay Due *** October 19, 2011: Session 8??? ????????????????????????????????? The Space Shuttle - Creature of Compromise Required Readings: * Howard E. McCurdy, Space and the American Imagination, pp. 207-35. Choose One of the Following: * Andrew J. Butrica, "The 'Right' Stuff: The Reagan Revolution and the U.S. Space Program," in Steven J. Dick, ed., Remembering the Space Age: Proceedings of the Fiftieth Anniversary Conference (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2008-4703, 2008), pp. 121-34. * Amy Foster, "Coping with Celebrity: Women as Astronauts and Heroes," in Paul G. Gillespie and Grant T. Weller, eds., Harnessing the Heavens: National Defense Through Space. Chicago, IL: Imprint Publications, 2008), pp. 165-75. * Joseph Lorenzo Hall, "Columbia and Challenger: Organizational Failure at NASA," Space Policy 19 (November 2003): 239-47. * Diane Vaughan, "Changing NASA: The Challenges of Organizational System Failures," in Steven J. Dick and Roger D. Launius, ed., Critical Issues in the History of Spaceflight (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2006-4702, 2006), pp. 349-75. ???October 26, 2011: Session 9??????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????? The Challenge of the Space Station ???Required Readings: * Howard E. McCurdy, Space and the American Imagination, pp. 181-206. ???Choose One of the Following: * Sylvia D. Fries, "2001 to 1984: Political Environment and the Design of NASA's Space Station System," Technology and Culture 29 (July 1988): 568-93. * W. Henry Lambright, "Leadership and Large-Scale Technology: The Case of the International Space Station,"???Space Policy 21 (August 2005): 195-203. * Roger D. Launius, "Space Stations for the United States: An Idea Whose Time Has Come-And Gone?" Acta Astronautica 62 (May-June 2008): 539-55. * John J. Madison and Howard E. McCurdy, "Spending Without Results: Lessons from the Space Station Program," Space Policy 15 (November 1999): 213-21. ???November 2, 2011: Session 10??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Spaceflight in the International Context Required Readings: * John M. Logsdon, "The Development of International Space Cooperation," in John M. Logsdon, et al., eds., Exploring the Unknown: Selected Documents in the Evolution of the U.S. Civil Space Program, Volume II (Washington, DC: NASA SP-4407, 1996), pp. 1-57.??? Choose One of the Following: * James R. Hansen, "The Great Leap Upward: China's Human Spaceflight Program and Chinese National Identity," in Steven J. Dick, ed., Remembering the Space Age: Proceedings of the Fiftieth Anniversary Conference (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2008-4703, 2008), pp. 109-20. * John Krige, "Technology, Foreign Policy and International Collaboration in Space," in Steven J. Dick and Roger D. Launius, eds., Critical Issues in History of Spaceflight (Washington DC: NASA SP-2006-4702, 2006), pp. 239-60. * Roger D. Launius, "United States Space Cooperation and Competition: Historical Reflections," Astropolitics: The International Journal of Space Politics & Policy 7/2 (2009): 89-100. * Asif A. Siddiqi, "Competing Technologies, National(ist) Narratives, and Universal Claims: Toward a Global History of Space Exploration," Technology and Culture 51 (April 2010): 425-43. ???November 9, 2011: Session 11??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Things Recent and (con)Temporary Required Readings: * Howard E. McCurdy, Space and the American Imagination, 268-307.??? Choose One of the Following: * Andrew J. Butrica, "Reusable Launch Vehicles or Expendable Launch Vehicles? A Perennial Debate," in Steven J. Dick and Roger D. Launius, eds., Critical Issues in History of Spaceflight (Washington DC: NASA SP-2006-4702, 2006), pp. 302-41. * Roger D. Launius and Dennis R. Jenkins, "Is It Finally Time for Space Tourism?" Astropolitics: The International Journal of Space Politics and Policy 4 (Winter 2006): 253-80. * Ajey Lele, "An Asian Moon Race?" Space Policy 26 (2010) 222-28. * Eligar Sadeh, "Space Policy Challenges Facing the Barack Obama Administration," Space Policy 25 (May 2009): 109-16. November 16, 2011: Session 12????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Spaceflight and Memory Required Readings: * Roger D. Launius, "American Spaceflight History's Master Narrative and the Meaning of Memory," in Steven J. Dick, ed., Remembering the Space Age: Proceedings of the Fiftieth Anniversary Conference (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2008-4703, 2008), pp. 353-85.??? Choose One of the Following: * Slava Gerovitch, "Creating Memories: Myth, Identity, and Culture in the Russian Space Age," in Steven J. Dick, ed., Remembering the Space Age: Proceedings of the Fiftieth Anniversary Conference (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2008-4703, 2008), pp. 204-36. * Gretchen Heefner, "Missiles and Memory: Dismantling South Dakota's Cold War," Western Historical Quarterly 38 (Summer 2007): 181-203. * Monique Laney, "'Operation Paperclip' in Huntsville, Alabama," in Steven J. Dick, ed., Remembering the Space Age: Proceedings of the Fiftieth Anniversary Conference (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2008-4703, 2008), pp. 89-107. * Michael J. Neufeld, "Creating a Memory of the German Rocket Program for the Cold War," in Steven J. Dick, ed., Remembering the Space Age: Proceedings of the Fiftieth Anniversary Conference (Washington, DC: NASA SP-2008-4703, 2008), pp. 71-87. ???November 30, 2011: Session 13????????????????????? Material Culture and Controversy ???Required Readings: * Roger D. Launius, "Abandoned in Place: Interpreting the U.S. Material Culture of the Moon Race," The Public Historian 31 (August 2009): 9-38. ???Choose One of the Following: * Denis Cosgrove, "Contested Global Visions: One-World, Whole-Earth, and the Apollo Space Photographs," Annals of the Association of American Geographers 84 (June 1994): 270-94. * David A. DeVorkin, "Space Artifacts: Are They Historical Evidence?" in Steven J. Dick and Roger D. Launius, eds., Critical Issues in History of Spaceflight (Washington DC: NASA SP-2006-4702, 2006), pp. 574-600. * Alice Gorman and Beth O'Leary, "An Ideological Vacuum: The Cold War in Outer Space," in John Schofield and Wayne Cocroft, eds., A Fearsome Heritage: Diverse Legacies of the Cold War (Tucson, AZ: Left Coast Press, 2007), pp. 73-92. * Margaret A. Weitekamp, "Critical Theory as a Toolbox: Suggestions for Space History's Relationship to the History Subdisciplines," in Steven J. Dick and Roger D. Launius, eds., Critical Issues in History of Spaceflight (Washington DC: NASA SP-2006-4702, 2006), pp. 549-72. ???*** Second Review Essay Due at End of Reading Period, December 6 *** Add a comment to this post [http://s.wordpress.org/about/images/logo-grey/grey-m.png] WordPress.com | Thanks for flying with WordPress! Manage Subscriptions | Unsubscribe | Reach out to your own subscribers with WordPress.com. Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://subscribe.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cdomashnev at acm.org Fri Sep 2 08:44:12 2011 From: cdomashnev at acm.org (Constantine Domashnev) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 08:44:12 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] ICBM In-Reply-To: <54521314964656@web74.yandex.ru> Message-ID: Sergey (and all), I believe a very good way to [self]publish and distribute an e-book nowadays is via (as an example) Amazon.com. Converting a text into Amazon format is no rocket science. No hardware is needed to read Amazon e-books: Kindle in software form for MS Windows and Android (etc, etc) is available free of charge. Likely, there are similar options for B&N Nook, etc. Thanks. KD From m.launer at att.net Fri Sep 2 10:15:20 2011 From: m.launer at att.net (Michael Launer) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 07:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Grunt Humor Message-ID: <1314972920.26160.YahooMailRC@web180811.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I assume most readers of this site realize that Phobos-Grunt isn't about Marines or any other grunts, but rather that ????? (pronounced ) is one Russian word for, among other things,?dirt/earth/soil/rock/sediment. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjp961 at svol.net Fri Sep 2 12:02:22 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 12:02:22 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Question about Spiral testing...where Message-ID: <4e60fe1f.e60f340a.40dc.4080@mx.google.com> Question about Spiral testing. Was the Spiral tested at both Zhukovskiy and at Astrakhan? Or only at one of these places? If you have a URL link to the material, that would be helpful. Thanks in advance. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbcharle at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 11:55:37 2011 From: jbcharle at gmail.com (John) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 10:55:37 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called here "Shenlong" In-Reply-To: References: <4e5fd53f.41132a0a.502b.0087@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <33D67A4E-7F05-48A9-BD63-1FDD8FE79530@gmail.com> Phill I hope no one is surprised by the military connection mentioned for the Shenlong. After, the People's Liberation Army provide most of the infrastructure for the Chinese space program. Similarly, the military inputs into the US space shuttle design are quite well known. I am more interested in the Chinese attempts to find military applications for their human space efforts when the US and Russia seem to have learned that there aren't many. Dwayne Day has written about this. And what if the US and Russia have got it wrong...? JBC Sent from my iPhone. Please forgive typos. On Sep 2, 2011, at 1:21, "Phillip Clark" wrote: > I am sure that there are those who will howl in anguish about the possible Chinese shuttle being duel-role civil/military, totally ignoring the fact that this is how the US shuttle was intended to operate. > > I think that it is reasonable for the Chinese to be THINKING about reuseable launch vehicles, but I am sure that Shenzhou and its derivatives will remain the focus of China's piloted space programme for the next decade and a half at least. > > Phillip Clark > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Peter Pesavento > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 7:55 PM > Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported,called here "Shenlong" > > You can read about it here at the website of the International Assessment and Strategy Center?. > > > Article by Richard Fisher (contributor to a number of periodicals, including Defense Technology International, Aviation Week, and Foreign Policy) > > Title: ?China?s Space Plane Program? (Has illustrations and video captures) > > > Published July 27, 2011 > > http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.253/pub_detail.asp > > If anyone who has expertise would like to comment on what Fisher is saying, please hold forth > > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dstdba at post4.tele.dk Fri Sep 2 13:23:12 2011 From: dstdba at post4.tele.dk (Jens Kieffer-Olsen) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 19:23:12 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] demanned In-Reply-To: <001401cc68ea$57b11200$07133600$@tpg.com.au> References: <4E5E141D.2080901@telenet.be> <003801cc68d5$c36ff980$4a4fec80$@tele.dk> <001401cc68ea$57b11200$07133600$@tpg.com.au> Message-ID: <003301cc6995$00f5e3e0$02e1aba0$@tele.dk> I remember posters from the mid-90'es promoting the ISS as being 'human tended'. Therefore I'm willing to settle for 'de-tended'! Any takers? -- Jens Kieffer-Olsen Slagelse, Denmark -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: Brett & Sue [mailto:routierx at tpg.com.au] Sendt: 1. september 2011 23:02 Til: 'Jens Kieffer-Olsen'; fpspace at friends-partners.org Emne: Re: [FPSPACE] demanned De-crewed? -----Original Message----- From: fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org [mailto:fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org] On Behalf Of Jens Kieffer-Olsen Sent: Friday, 2 September 2011 4:34 AM To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] demanned Yes Zeger, 'demanned' is not just an issue of NASA slang, but of sexist NASA slang! Let's suggest instead that NASA use the word 'deoccupied'! An example of the use of similar slang may be found at Tane's blog http://www.myspace.com/tane_1/blog/241361559 from where I quote: "Why Hawaii needs the US to deoccupy its country". -- Jens Kieffer-Olsen Slagelse, Denmark -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: Zeger Nuyens [mailto:dokter.nuyens at telenet.be] Sendt: 31. august 2011 13:00 Til: fpspace at friends-partners.org Emne: [FPSPACE] demanned I must admit that when I saw "demanned" I was thinking of something completely different... Zeger Nuyens > How about the perfectly valid English word "unoccupied"? > > Phillip Clark _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace From phillipclark at btinternet.com Fri Sep 2 13:51:03 2011 From: phillipclark at btinternet.com (Phillip Clark) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 18:51:03 +0100 Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called here "Shenlong" In-Reply-To: <33D67A4E-7F05-48A9-BD63-1FDD8FE79530@gmail.com> References: <4e5fd53f.41132a0a.502b.0087@mx.google.com> <33D67A4E-7F05-48A9-BD63-1FDD8FE79530@gmail.com> Message-ID: I know that in my various writing and interviews covering the flights up to and including Shenzhou 5 I said that the only way that the piloted programme could be funded would be the "sell it" to the military as having an application which they could use. And the instrumentation carried at the front of the orbital modules were probably test-beds for some of the things which we are seeing (or rather not, because it's secret!) now within the Yaogan Weixing programme. China seems to be following its own path in space - manned and unmanned - and happily ignoring the predictions of pundits in the west. It makes life interesting! Also, what is a military space programme? All Soviet launches were run by the Strategic Rocket Forces so was all of the Soviet programme purely military? ("YES" shout the Rednecks in unison while drinking tea!) Similarly, Chinese launches are by the PLA so does that make all Chinese launches purely military? (Pause for a repeat shout.) My belief is that the Chinese programme is primarily military in nature but with dual role elements and occasionally purely civilian science projects. Phillip Clark ----- Original Message ----- From: John To: Phillip Clark Cc: Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:55 PM Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called here "Shenlong" Phill I hope no one is surprised by the military connection mentioned for the Shenlong. After, the People's Liberation Army provide most of the infrastructure for the Chinese space program. Similarly, the military inputs into the US space shuttle design are quite well known. I am more interested in the Chinese attempts to find military applications for their human space efforts when the US and Russia seem to have learned that there aren't many. Dwayne Day has written about this. And what if the US and Russia have got it wrong...? JBC Sent from my iPhone. Please forgive typos. On Sep 2, 2011, at 1:21, "Phillip Clark" wrote: I am sure that there are those who will howl in anguish about the possible Chinese shuttle being duel-role civil/military, totally ignoring the fact that this is how the US shuttle was intended to operate. I think that it is reasonable for the Chinese to be THINKING about reuseable launch vehicles, but I am sure that Shenzhou and its derivatives will remain the focus of China's piloted space programme for the next decade and a half at least. Phillip Clark ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pesavento To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 7:55 PM Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported,called here "Shenlong" You can read about it here at the website of the International Assessment and Strategy Center?. Article by Richard Fisher (contributor to a number of periodicals, including Defense Technology International, Aviation Week, and Foreign Policy) Title: ?China?s Space Plane Program? (Has illustrations and video captures) Published July 27, 2011 http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.253/pub_detail.asp If anyone who has expertise would like to comment on what Fisher is saying, please hold forth -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From agzak at optonline.net Fri Sep 2 14:11:07 2011 From: agzak at optonline.net (Anatoly Zak) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 14:11:07 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called here "Shenlong" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can not even describe the level of shouting,... no.. hysterical screaming the Soviet press was making about the fact that the Space Shuttle was nothing but militarization of space. That made it very difficult to believe that it was right! :) Anatoly Zak http://www.RussianSpaceWeb.com On 9/2/11 1:51 PM, "Phillip Clark" wrote: > I know that in my various writing and interviews covering the flights up to > and including Shenzhou 5 I said that the only way that the piloted programme > could be funded would be the "sell it" to the military as having an > application which they could use. And the instrumentation carried at the > front of the orbital modules were probably test-beds for some of the things > which we are seeing (or rather not, because it's secret!) now within the > Yaogan Weixing programme. > > China seems to be following its own path in space - manned and unmanned - and > happily ignoring the predictions of pundits in the west. It makes life > interesting! > > Also, what is a military space programme? All Soviet launches were run by > the Strategic Rocket Forces so was all of the Soviet programme purely > military? ("YES" shout the Rednecks in unison while drinking tea!) > Similarly, Chinese launches are by the PLA so does that make all Chinese > launches purely military? (Pause for a repeat shout.) My belief is that > the Chinese programme is primarily military in nature but with dual role > elements and occasionally purely civilian science projects. > > Phillip Clark > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: John >> >> To: Phillip Clark >> >> Cc: "> >> >> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:55 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called >> here "Shenlong" >> >> >> >> Phill >> >> >> >> I hope no one is surprised by the military connection mentioned for the >> Shenlong. After, the People's Liberation Army provide most of the >> infrastructure for the Chinese space program. >> >> >> >> Similarly, the military inputs into the US space shuttle design are quite >> well known. >> >> >> >> I am more interested in the Chinese attempts to find military applications >> for their human space efforts when the US and Russia seem to have learned >> that there aren't many. Dwayne Day has written about this. >> >> >> >> And what if the US and Russia have got it wrong...? >> >> JBC >> Sent from my iPhone. >> Please forgive typos. >> >> >> On Sep 2, 2011, at 1:21, "Phillip Clark" >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> I am sure that there are those who will howl in anguish about the possible >>> Chinese shuttle being duel-role civil/military, totally ignoring the fact >>> that this is how the US shuttle was intended to operate. >>> >>> >>> >>> I think that it is reasonable for the Chinese to be THINKING about >>> reuseable launch vehicles, but I am sure that Shenzhou and its derivatives >>> will remain the focus of China's piloted space programme for the next >>> decade and a half at least. >>> >>> >>> >>> Phillip Clark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> >>>> From: Peter Pesavento >>>> >>>> To: fpspace at friends-partners.org >>>> >>>> Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 7:55 PM >>>> >>>> Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported,called here >>>> "Shenlong" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> You can read about it here at the website of the International Assessment >>>> and Strategy Center?. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Article by Richard Fisher (contributor to a number of periodicals, >>>> including Defense Technology International, Aviation Week, and Foreign >>>> Policy) >>>> >>>> >>>> Title: ?China?s Space Plane Program? (Has illustrations and video >>>> captures) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Published July 27, 2011 >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.253/pub_detail.asp >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If anyone who has expertise would like to comment on what Fisher is >>>> saying, please hold forth >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> FPSPACE mailing list >>>> FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >>>> http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace >>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> FPSPACE mailing list >>>>> FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >>>>> http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> FPSPACE mailing list >>>> FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >>>> http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jameseoberg at comcast.net Fri Sep 2 14:11:15 2011 From: jameseoberg at comcast.net (James E Oberg) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 13:11:15 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] Cosmonaut Valeriy Rozhdestvenskiy has died, on Aug 31, age 73. Message-ID: I can't find any earlier announcements of this. Valeriy Rozhdestvenskiy has died, on Aug 31, age 73. Trained as military-salyut flight engineer, but rendezvous failed and he and Zudov made only manned splashdown in Soviet/russian space history, in Lake Tengiz, October 16, 1976. Soyuz-23. Rumors were that at least one of the recovery team drowned during the night-long rescue, during which the crew was given up for dead as well. artist concept of nighttime splashdown: http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/s/soyuz23.jpg http://www.spacefacts.de/bios/cosmonauts/english/rozhdestvensky_valeri.htm http://www.astronautix.com/flights/soyuz23.htm ???????? ??????? ????????? ? ??????????? ???????? ?????????????? 02 ???????? 2011, 21:15 http://www.polit.ru/news/2011/09/02/space_vr/ ??????? ? ???????? ??????? ?????? ???????? ????? ?????????? ?????, ???????-?????????? ????, ?????????? ??????? ?????? ???????????????, ??????? ????????? 31 ??????? 2011 ???? ?? 73-? ???? ?????. ????? ?????????? ? ?????? ???????, ? ??? ??????????? ?????? ??? ??????, ?????? ? ?????????, ???????? ?????-?????? ?????? ?????????? ??????????? ????? ?.?. ????????. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Fri Sep 2 15:16:02 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 15:16:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Cosmonaut Valeriy Rozhdestvenskiy has died, on Aug 31, age 73. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CE37BBE34F7706-1990-2415C@webmail-m154.sysops.aol.com> This is sad news. He was one of a small handful of cosmonauts who ever got to see an Almaz station in-orbit. My condolences to all who met, and knew him. He will be missed. David L. Rickman -----Original Message----- From: James E Oberg To: fpspace Cc: James E Oberg Sent: Fri, Sep 2, 2011 10:12 am Subject: [FPSPACE] Cosmonaut Valeriy Rozhdestvenskiy has died, on Aug 31, age 73. I can't find any earlier announcements of this. Valeriy Rozhdestvenskiy has died, on Aug 31, age 73. Trained as military-salyut flight engineer, but rendezvous failed and he and Zudov made only manned splashdown in Soviet/russian space history, in Lake Tengiz, October 16, 1976. Soyuz-23. Rumors were that at least one of the recovery team drowned during the night-long rescue, during which the crew was given up for dead as well. artist concept of nighttime splashdown: http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/s/soyuz23.jpg http://www.spacefacts.de/bios/cosmonauts/english/rozhdestvensky_valeri.htm http://www.astronautix.com/flights/soyuz23.htm ???????? ??????? ????????? ? ??????????? ???????? ?????????????? 02 ???????? 2011, 21:15 http://www.polit.ru/news/2011/09/02/space_vr/ ??????? ? ???????? ??????? ?????? ???????? ????? ?????????? ?????, ???????-?????????? ????, ?????????? ??????? ?????? ???????????????, ??????? ????????? 31 ??????? 2011 ???? ?? 73-? ???? ?????. ????? ?????????? ? ?????? ???????, ? ??? ??????????? ?????? ??? ??????, ?????? ? ?????????, ???????? ?????-?????? ?????? ?????????? ??????????? ????? ?.?. ????????. _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Fri Sep 2 17:42:15 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 17:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] NPO Mashinostroyenia Mock-Ups Message-ID: <8CE37D051074D67-1990-26B67@webmail-m154.sysops.aol.com> Hello FPSpacers, In the current edition of NPO Mashinostroyenias' online newsletter, Tribune, there is an interesting article about a subject which I had been curious about for sometime. Who builds these huge mock-ups of space stations? The answer and a tribute to the Chief Builder can be found here: http://www.npomash.ru/press/ru/tribuna300811.htm?l=0 Best Regards, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geertsassen at gmail.com Fri Sep 2 21:28:09 2011 From: geertsassen at gmail.com (Geert Sassen) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 03:28:09 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Question about Spiral testing...where In-Reply-To: <4e60fe1f.e60f340a.40dc.4080@mx.google.com> References: <4e60fe1f.e60f340a.40dc.4080@mx.google.com> Message-ID: There is a YouTube video of an actual testflight of Spiral, but I don't remember seeing or hearing a clear indication of which base it was on. Can't access my archive from here (at work) but just search for Spiral or one of its designations on YouTube and you'll find it. Regards, Geert. On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Peter Pesavento wrote: > Question about Spiral testing. > > > > Was the Spiral tested at both Zhukovskiy and at Astrakhan?? Or only at one > of these places?? If you have a URL link to the material, that would be > helpful. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > -- Geert Sassen http://www.facebook.com/geert.sassen From ljk4 at msn.com Sat Sep 3 00:04:48 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 00:04:48 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called here "Shenlong" In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: They also seem to have an interest in NEOs. They would make for good sources of easy-access material for building an interplanetary culture. They who can manipulate planetoids in space can also get their point across geopolitically by using a space rock as a threat. Perhaps this is the real reason NASA has been instructed to land humans on planetoids: To start securing the Sol system from the Chinese. Larry Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 14:11:07 -0400 From: agzak at optonline.net To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called here "Shenlong" Re: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called here "Shenlong" I can not even describe the level of shouting,... no.. hysterical screaming the Soviet press was making about the fact that the Space Shuttle was nothing but militarization of space. That made it very difficult to believe that it was right! :) Anatoly Zak http://www.RussianSpaceWeb.com On 9/2/11 1:51 PM, "Phillip Clark" wrote: I know that in my various writing and interviews covering the flights up to and including Shenzhou 5 I said that the only way that the piloted programme could be funded would be the "sell it" to the military as having an application which they could use. And the instrumentation carried at the front of the orbital modules were probably test-beds for some of the things which we are seeing (or rather not, because it's secret!) now within the Yaogan Weixing programme. China seems to be following its own path in space - manned and unmanned - and happily ignoring the predictions of pundits in the west. It makes life interesting! Also, what is a military space programme? All Soviet launches were run by the Strategic Rocket Forces so was all of the Soviet programme purely military? ("YES" shout the Rednecks in unison while drinking tea!) Similarly, Chinese launches are by the PLA so does that make all Chinese launches purely military? (Pause for a repeat shout.) My belief is that the Chinese programme is primarily military in nature but with dual role elements and occasionally purely civilian science projects. Phillip Clark ----- Original Message ----- From: John To: Phillip Clark Cc: "> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:55 PM Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported, called here "Shenlong" Phill I hope no one is surprised by the military connection mentioned for the Shenlong. After, the People's Liberation Army provide most of the infrastructure for the Chinese space program. Similarly, the military inputs into the US space shuttle design are quite well known. I am more interested in the Chinese attempts to find military applications for their human space efforts when the US and Russia seem to have learned that there aren't many. Dwayne Day has written about this. And what if the US and Russia have got it wrong...? JBC Sent from my iPhone. Please forgive typos. On Sep 2, 2011, at 1:21, "Phillip Clark" wrote: I am sure that there are those who will howl in anguish about the possible Chinese shuttle being duel-role civil/military, totally ignoring the fact that this is how the US shuttle was intended to operate. I think that it is reasonable for the Chinese to be THINKING about reuseable launch vehicles, but I am sure that Shenzhou and its derivatives will remain the focus of China's piloted space programme for the next decade and a half at least. Phillip Clark ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Pesavento To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 7:55 PM Subject: [FPSPACE] Possible Chinese space plane test reported,called here "Shenlong" You can read about it here at the website of the International Assessment and Strategy Center?. Article by Richard Fisher (contributor to a number of periodicals, including Defense Technology International, Aviation Week, and Foreign Policy) Title: ?China?s Space Plane Program? (Has illustrations and video captures) Published July 27, 2011 http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.253/pub_detail.asp If anyone who has expertise would like to comment on what Fisher is saying, please hold forth _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dstdba at post4.tele.dk Sat Sep 3 00:23:36 2011 From: dstdba at post4.tele.dk (Jens Kieffer-Olsen) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 06:23:36 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Grunt Humor In-Reply-To: <1314972920.26160.YahooMailRC@web180811.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1314972920.26160.YahooMailRC@web180811.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002b01cc69f1$42826b60$c7874220$@tele.dk> So no connection at all to Death Metal either, eg. JB?s The Grunt? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-4VxEtWyRo -- Jens Kieffer-Olsen Slagelse, Denmark Fra: Michael Launer [mailto:m.launer at att.net] Sendt: 2. september 2011 16:15 Til: fpspace at www.friends-partners.org Emne: [FPSPACE] Grunt Humor I assume most readers of this site realize that Phobos-Grunt isn't about Marines or any other grunts, but rather that ????? (pronounced ) is one Russian word for, among other things, dirt/earth/soil/rock/sediment. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kgottschalk at uwc.ac.za Sat Sep 3 06:35:07 2011 From: kgottschalk at uwc.ac.za (Keith Gottschalk) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2011 12:35:07 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] motivation for Chinese space plane test & rest of programme In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4E621EFB020000A600011353@uwc.ac.za> Here's a political scientist's estimate on China's space programme. 1) Chinese space lobbyists will try to justify as much as possible on military grounds, to maximize their budget. (good luck to them :) 2) But an ever-increasing proportion of Chinese space programmes will actually be for prestige, & economics, in their consequences. 3) If military was really their overwhelming motive, then their space budget would be confined to, & poured into more 3.1 ICBMs & MIRV upgrades; then SLBMs (which I think they have not yet started); then 3.2 spysats across the whole electromagnetic spectrum, which I'm sure they have; then 3.3 a TDRS system (which they have not yet even started); 3.4 then their own mil comsats; (have they even started these?) 3.5 then IT upgrades to prevent the USG "phising" their spysats & comsats; & last 3.6 their own indigenous GPS systems. Some current US & other proposals for hypersonic winged vehicles launching quick-response cruise or other missiles seem to be intended to have the same effect as a FOB system, but without violating space treaties or being a FOBs sitting duck in orbit. But again, there's no benefits, only costs, to put human crews on such hypersonic spaceplanes. As Dwayne Day pointed out in our forum years ago (could it already be a decade ago?) human spaceflight results in a vast diverting of Chinese space budget away from milspend. Space stations are sitting ducks for every ASAT. Life support systems on a space anything divert a tonne of payload away from useful machines. Here's a query. When will the first Chinese robot be flown up to their future space station? They must have somewhere hidden lots of UAVs, AUVs, UGMs, if I get these cyber acronyms correct from memory. yours, Keith. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- All Email originating from UWC is covered by disclaimer http://www.uwc.ac.za/emaildisclaimer From m.launer at att.net Sat Sep 3 08:40:21 2011 From: m.launer at att.net (Michael Launer) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 05:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Cosmonaut Valeriy Rozhdestvenskiy has died, on Aug 31, age 73 Message-ID: <1315053621.3748.YahooMailRC@web180809.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Rozhdestvenskiy was 72 - not 73 - when he died. The Russian says "in his 73rd year" and gives his DOB as 13 February 1939. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Sat Sep 3 14:21:37 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 14:21:37 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] FW: Latest from Cosmic Log In-Reply-To: <10106897.102621315060075557.JavaMail.www-apps@cpnewsvineapp2> References: <10106897.102621315060075557.JavaMail.www-apps@cpnewsvineapp2> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 07:27:55 -0700 From: admin at adm.newsvine.com To: ljk4 at msn.com Subject: Latest from Cosmic Log Cosmic LogAmazon.com's Jeff Bezos reports crash of Blue Origin rocket ship - Alan Boyle Blue Origin's experimental rocket ship crashed last week when a high-altitude flight test went awry, says Amazon.com billionaire Jeff Bezos, who founded the secretive rocket venture 11 years ago. The Aug. If you would like to change your e-mail communication preferences, you may modify your settings here or unsubscribe from all e-mails here. Msnbc.com / Newsvine, One Microsoft Way, Redmond, WA 98052 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bhen at telenet.be Sat Sep 3 18:13:50 2011 From: bhen at telenet.be (Bart Hendrickx) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 00:13:50 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Question about Spiral testing...where In-Reply-To: <4e60fe1f.e60f340a.40dc.4080@mx.google.com> References: <4e60fe1f.e60f340a.40dc.4080@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <000001cc6a86$c2dda7d0$4898f770$@be> Peter Pesavento wrote : Question about Spiral testing. Was the Spiral tested at both Zhukovskiy and at Astrakhan? Or only at one of these places? If you have a URL link to the material, that would be helpful. All the test flights took place from the Air Force's GNIKI base near Akhtubinsk, some 300 km north of Astrakhan. The Spiral test bed (105.11) was delivered to GNIKI in May 1975 and performed a series of taxi runs and short autonomous test flights between November 1975 and October 1976. It was returned to Moscow (flying under the belly of a Tu-95KM) in February 1977 to be shown to Central Committee Secretary Yakov Ryabov, but was then flown back to GNIKI in May 1977 for the second round of test flights, which involved captive-carry flights with the Tu-95KM and drop tests from the same aircraft. The final test flight took place in September 1978 and 105.11 was definitively returned to Moscow the following month. The most detailed description of the Spiral programme is given in the book "Kosmicheskie kryl'ya" by Vadim Lukashevich and Igor Afanasyev, but you can also find plenty of material on the programme on Lukashevich's website at http://www.buran.ru/htm/spiral.htm. Bart Hendrickx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Sun Sep 4 00:53:50 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 00:53:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Need Lunniy Korabl Reference Photos Message-ID: <8CE38D5C58F1E1F-18EC-442D4@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> Hello FPSpacers, I am in need of reference photographs of the 11F94 Lunniy Korabl at Lab 601 at MAI, Lab 33 at the A. F. Mozhayskogo Academy, and the Demonstration Hall of MGTU in Orevo. I am aware of the amazing images on the Novosti Kosmonavtiki online Galleries, but there are views that I am still lacking. In particular, I am in need of images of the LPU "clam-shell" Deflection Shields designed to protect the Block E Engines. Specifically, I am looking for photos of the bottoms of all three, and the locking mechanisms on the ends of these assemblies on the LKs at Mozhayskogo and MGTU Orevo. These would be used as reference material for details in a 1:5 scale display model, and would not be published, transmitted, or shared with any third party. Thanks in advance! Best Regards, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jameseoberg at comcast.net Sun Sep 4 08:45:26 2011 From: jameseoberg at comcast.net (James E Oberg) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 07:45:26 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] =?iso-8859-1?q?Visit_Russia=27s_Plesetsk_Space_Center?= Message-ID: <5FB221AD9CB64AE4B7B4AEFB615D7519@ownerfbf08f40c> Visit Russia's Plesetsk Space Center http://www.barentsobserver.com/visit-russias-plesetsk-space-center.4953847.html Plesetsk Space Center in Arkhangelsk Oblast is Russia's only and the world's northernmost space center. It is listed as one of the Russian Armed Forces' top secret installations. At the space center the Angara launch facility is currently under construction. It is designed to put heavy payloads into orbit and will reduce Moscow's dependence on Kazakhstan's Baikonur, the main launch facility for the current generation of Russian rockets. Watch video from Plesetsk Space Center on RIA Novosti. http://en.rian.ru/video/20110830/166305761.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drwoods at stny.rr.com Sun Sep 4 12:12:52 2011 From: drwoods at stny.rr.com (David R. Woods) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2011 12:12:52 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Editor of Spaceflight Message-ID: <4E63A384.8080000@stny.rr.com> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Editor of Spaceflight Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 09:30:58 +0100 From: Reply-To: Organization: BIS To: BIS Clive Simpson, who has acted as Editor for Spaceflight for the past decade, has announced his intention of stepping down from the post at the end of 2011. The Society is therefore looking for a new editor. Anyone interested should in the first interest contact the Executive Secretary for details, and should submit an application with a description of how they see Spaceflight developing by noon on Monday 19 September 2011. Regards Suszann Parry Executive Secretary The British Interplanetary Society 27/29 South Lambeth Road LondonSW8 1SZ Tel: 0207 735 3160 Fax: 0207 587 5118 www.bis-spaceflight.com From davidlrickman at aol.com Sun Sep 4 19:00:51 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 19:00:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Anniversary of a Soviet lunar lander helicopter simulator test In-Reply-To: <8CE396D6B43E805-2230-2E164@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> References: <4BCA0807.70208@stny.rr.com> <8CE396D6B43E805-2230-2E164@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE396D9FA4B567-2230-2E1BA@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> Hi FPSpacers, I know it's been a year and a half since we had this discussion, but I came across a photo that I hadn't seen before and thought I'd share (just in case others hadn't seen it). It's the Planeta PRL DA-019 and DA-018 attached to a Mi-6 Helicopter for Lunar Landing Simulation Test: http://4image.uz/images/5913.jpg Not exactly the same as the one actually used on the Lunniy Korabl, but almost there. Best Regards, David L. Rickman -----Original Message----- From: David R. Woods To: fpspace Sent: Sat, Apr 17, 2010 5:15 pm Subject: [FPSPACE] Anniversary of a Soviet lunar lander helicopter simulator test Folks, An interesting item appeared on the Anniversaries section of the Roscosmos web page at http://www.roscosmos.ru. Today was marked as the anniversary of the SU (Soviet Union) 17 April 1970 flight test of a helicopter simulator of a spacecraft used to land on the lunar surface. There were no further details. It is generally assumed that once the Apollo 11 mission had been conducted, that the Soviet lunar cosmonaut team was disbanded to concentrate instead on space station programs. Therefore there should have been no further lander training tests after that. I have done a little searching through my records and I can not find any reference to this event or program. Does anyone have any further details? Dave ????????? ??????????? ??? What space anniversaries 17 ?????? 1970 | ?????????? ?????? ????????? ?? ??????? ??????? ??? ??????? ?? ??????????? ???? ?? ??????????? ?????????. 17 April 1970 | The flight tests of the SU lunar spacecraft to land on the lunar surface for the helicopter simulator. 17 April 1970 | Took place the flight tests SU of lunar ship for the landing on the surface of the Moon on the helicopter imitator _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjp961 at svol.net Mon Sep 5 16:13:09 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 16:13:09 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Space Junk at the tipping point Message-ID: <4e652d71.c4d7e00a.74fc.6d3b@mx.google.com> >From BBC News in London http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14757926 Space junk at tipping point, says report Scientists in the US have warned Nasa that the amount of so-called space junk orbiting Earth is at tipping point. A report by the National Research Council says the debris could cause fatal leaks in spaceships or destroy valuable satellites. It calls for international regulations to limit the junk and more research into the possible use of launching large magnetic nets or giant umbrellas. The debris includes clouds of minuscule fragments, old boosters and satellites. Some computer models show the amount of orbital rubbish "has reached a tipping point, with enough currently in orbit to continually collide and create even more debris, raising the risk of spacecraft failures," the research council said in a statement on Thursday. Situation 'critical' Hopes of limiting the amount of space junk in orbit suffered two major setbacks in recent years. In 2007, China conducted an anti-satellite weapon test which destroyed a decommissioned weather satellite, smashing the object into 150,000 pieces larger than 1cm. Two years later, two satellites - one defunct and one active - crashed in orbit, creating even more debris. "Those two single events doubled the amount of fragments in Earth orbit and completely wiped out what we had done in the last 25 years," said Donald Kessler, who led the research. There are 22,000 pieces of debris large enough to track from the ground, but smaller objects could still cause serious damage. The International Space Station must occasionally dodge some of the junk, which flies around the Earth at speeds of up to 17,500 mph (28,164 km/h). In June, some debris narrowly missed the space station, forcing its six crew to go to their escape capsules and prepare for an emergency evacuation back to Earth. The situation is critical, said Mr Kessler, a retired Nasa scientist, because colliding debris creates even more of the junk. "We've lost control of the environment," he said. The report makes no recommendations about how to clean up the field of debris. But it refers to an earlier study for the Pentagon's science think-tank, the Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency (Darpa). The Darpa report, dubbed "Catcher's Mitt", suggested a range of technologies, including harpoons, nets and an umbrella-shaped device that would sweep up the debris. The aim would be to push the debris further towards the earth where it would burn up, or into a higher but safer orbit. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Tue Sep 6 01:41:29 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 01:41:29 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] FW: [New post] Sail on Voyager In-Reply-To: <088e4ce3ffcdd4d093bb82f030e99c4d@wordpress.com> References: <088e4ce3ffcdd4d093bb82f030e99c4d@wordpress.com> Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 14:17:19 +0000 To: ljk4 at msn.com From: no-reply at wordpress.com Subject: [New post] Sail on Voyager WordPress.com Sail on Voyager launiusr | September 5, 2011 at 2:17 pm | Tags: Grand Tour, History, NASA, Neptune, PJupiter, Saturn, space science, U.S. Civil Space, Uranus, Voyager | Categories: History, Science, Space | URL: http://wp.me/pwYu1-Ce The Voyager spacecraft. Today in 1977 NASA launched Voyager 1, the second mission of this series launched to explore the outer planets in what came to be called the "Grand Tour." It seems appropriate to remember this important mission at this time. Even though the ?four-?planet mission was known to be possible, it had been estimated as too expensive to build a spacecraft that could go the distance, carry the instruments needed, and last long enough to accomplish such an extended mission. Thus, the two Voyager spacecraft ?were funded to conduct intensive flyby studies only of Jupiter and Saturn, in effect repeating on a more elaborate scale the flights of Pioneers 10 and 11 that had begun earlier in the 1970s. Nonetheless, the engineers designed as much longevity into the two Voyagers as the $865 million bud?get would allow. NASA launched them from the Kennedy Space Center, Florida: Voyager 2 lifted off on August 20, 1977, and Voyager 1 entered space on a faster, shorter trajectory on September 5, 1977. As the mission progressed, having successfully accomplished all its objectives at Jupiter and Saturn in December 1980, additional flybys of the two outermost giant planets, Uranus and Neptune, proved ?possible?and ?irresistible?to mission scientists. Accordingly, as the two spacecraft flew across the solar system, ?remote-?control reprogramming was used to redirect the Voyagers for the greater mission. Eventually Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 explored all the giant outer planets, 48 of their moons, and the unique systems of rings and magnetic fields those planets possess. The two spacecraft returned information to Earth that revo?lu?tionized solar system science, helping resolve some key questions while raising intriguing new ones about the origin and evo?lu?tion of the planets. The two Voyagers took well over 100,000 images of the outer planets, rings, and satellites, as well as millions of magnetic, chemical spectra, and radiation mea?sure?ments. ?They discovered rings around Jupiter, volcanoes on Io, shepherding satellites in Saturn?s rings, new moons around Uranus and Neptune, and geysers on Triton. The last imaging sequence was Voyager 1?s portrait of most of the solar system, showing Earth and six other planets as sparks in a dark sky lit by a single bright star, the Sun. It was a stunning mission, one that has had a profound influence on our knowledge of the solar system. The "family portrait" of the Solar System taken by Voyager 1. This picture consists of 60 frames taken through the Wide Angle and Narrow Angle cameras using the Methane, Violet, Blue, Green, and Clear Filters. Add a comment to this post WordPress.com | Thanks for flying with WordPress! Manage Subscriptions | Unsubscribe | Publish text, photos, music, and videos by email using our Post by Email feature. Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://subscribe.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjp961 at svol.net Tue Sep 6 17:42:35 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 17:42:35 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] New Views of Apollo landings sites released by NASA today...via close-look Lunar Recon Orbiter Message-ID: <4e6693ea.d3dce00a.53da.29df@mx.google.com> Read the press release (and gawk at the photos) here. http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LRO/news/apollo-sites.html The orbiter apparently has been put into a much lower orbit, thus enhancing the resolution. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drwoods at stny.rr.com Tue Sep 6 22:34:25 2011 From: drwoods at stny.rr.com (David R. Woods) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2011 22:34:25 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Astronaut Dan Bursch to speak in Vestal, NY Message-ID: <4E66D831.6000302@stny.rr.com> Dan Bursch http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/Bios/htmlbios/bursch.html is one of our four local "Route-17 Astronauts" and will be back in town for a day of presentations. Dan flew on STS-51, STS-68, STS-77 and up on STS-108 where he spent 6 1/2 months on the ISS as part of Expedition-4 and then returned on STS-111. Details of his activities can be found at: Captain Dan Bursch USN (ret.) Homecoming Celebration Saturday September 24, 2011 Kopernik Observatory and Science Center welcomes retired astronaut Daniel Bursch for a celebration of his career in spaceflight. A graduate of Vestal High School, Capt. Bursch flew on four space shuttle missions and currently holds the American spaceflight endurance record of 196 days. Capt. Bursch has been called ?one of the strongest public affairs assets in (NASA?s) arsenal?. An inspirational speaker who has captivated audiences of all ages, Dan leaves his listeners inspired to reach for the stars, no matter where that star may be. http://www.kopernik.org/ http://www.kopernik.org/pdf/2011/Dan-Bursch-Schedule-of-Events.pdf From davidlrickman at aol.com Wed Sep 7 01:36:17 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 01:36:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Antenna Question: Lonokhod vs. Lunniy Korabl Message-ID: <8CE3B373339FE44-2034-98DD4@webmail-d128.sysops.aol.com> FPSpacers, One more question on the Lunniy Korabl: The antenna on two of the remaining Lunniy Korabl look similar to that used on some soviet satellites (such as Lunokhod, Venera, Mars). Are the antennae on the Lunniy Korabl the real design, or are they simplifications of the same type of antenna displayed on these other satellites?? Here's a photo for comparison: http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6084/6123054828_551405688e_b.jpg Does anybody know of any other examples of the type of antenna displayed on the LK? Curiously, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Wed Sep 7 02:02:19 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 02:02:19 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] FW: [JAXA:0309] The "Scinence"special edition on "HAYABUSA" research reports was published In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 14:19:57 +0900 > From: jaxapr at jaxa.jp > Subject: [JAXA:0309] The "Scinence"special edition on "HAYABUSA" research reports was published > To: ljk4 at msn.com > > August 26, 2011 (JST) > > The "Scinence"special edition on "HAYABUSA" > research reports was published > > The Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) has been engaged in collecting > and categorizing particles in the sampler container (*1), which was brought > back by the instrumental module of the asteroid exploration spacecraft > "HAYABUSA" from asteroid "Itokawa." > > As part of this effort, JAXA has been conducting the initial analysis (*2) of > particles identified as rocky using scanning electron microscope (SEM) > observations, which were collected from sample catcher compartment "A." > > As a part of achievements of the initial analysis, six HAYABUSA research > reports were published in the "Science Magazine" dated August 26, 2011. In > addition, the cover of this magazine features these achievements. > > This is also epoch-making news since the special issues that the asteroid > explorer "HAYABUSA's" neighborhood observation on asteroid "Itokawa" in June > 2006, the solar observation satellite "HINODE" in December 2007 and "KAGUYA" in > February 2009. > The titles of the research reports in Science magazine are as follows: > 1) Itokawa dust particles: A direct link between S-type asteroids and ordinary > chondrites > 2) Oxygen Isotopic Compositions of Asteroidal Materials Returned from Itokawa > by the Hayabusa Mission > 3) Neutron Activation Analysis of a Particle Returned from Asteroid Itokawa > 4) Three-dimensional structure of Hayabusa sample: Origin and evolution of > Itokawa regolith > 5) Incipient space weathering observed on the surface of Itokawa dust > 6) Irradiation history of Itokawa regolith material deduced from noble gases in > the Hayabusa samples > > > *1 The HAYABUSA sampler container consists of 2 compartments that are called > Sample Catcher A and B. > > *2 "Initial analysis" means the analysis of typical particles to obtain > information necessary for categorizing > (identification, classification and numbering) as a part of curation > activity (*3). > > *3 "Curation activity" means the retrieval of particles, preservation, > categorizing and allocation and their necessary analysis. > > Science Magazine 26 August 2011 : Cover > http://www.jaxa.jp/press/2011/08/20110826_hayabusa_e.html#img > > A small rocky particle, 150 microns in size, brought buck from asteroid > "Itokawa" by the asteroid exploration spacecraft "HAYABUSA." > > Mission website: > Science: http://www.sciencemag.org/magazine.dtl > Asteroid Explorer "HAYABUSA" (MUSES-C): > http://www.jaxa.jp/projects/sat/muses_c/index_e.html > Tohoku University: http://www.tohoku.ac.jp/english/ > KEK / Tohoku University: http://www.kek.jp/intra-e/press/2011/082613/ > Hokkaido University: http://www.hokudai.ac.jp/en/ > Tokyo Metropolitan University: http://www.tmu.ac.jp/english/index.html > Osaka University: http://www.osaka-u.ac.jp/en/index.html > The University of Tokyo: http://www.u-tokyo.ac.jp/index_e.html > > > URL: > http://www.jaxa.jp/press/2011/08/20110826_hayabusa_e.html > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Publisher : > Public Affairs Department > Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA) > Marunouchi Kitaguchi Building, > 1-6-5, Marunouchi, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo 100-8260 Japan > TEL:+81-3-6266-6400 > > JAXA WEB SITE : > http://www.jaxa.jp/index_e.html > > About This Mail Service : > To change registered e-mail address, or to cancel this service, > please access to > http://www.jaxa.jp/pr/mail/index_e.html > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nikolai39 at hotmail.fr Wed Sep 7 09:09:19 2011 From: nikolai39 at hotmail.fr (Nicolas PILLET) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 15:09:19 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Book of ISS Reshetnev Message-ID: To be published very soon : http://www.iss-reshetnev.ru/book/index.php -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Wed Sep 7 14:24:07 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2011 14:24:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Antenna Question: Lonokhod vs. Lunniy Korabl Message-ID: <8CE3BA276B1E73C-21AC-6ACA0@webmail-m056.sysops.aol.com> Hello FPSpacers! My question has been answered, and for those of you whoappreciate learning about the Lunniy Korabl there is a couple of fantasticdiscussions on the Novosti Kosmonavtiki Forum Both discussions are under the "???????????? - ?? ???????, ?????????? ????????????" heading , and the topics are: ??????? ? ?????? ???????? 11?94 ...??? ??????????? ?????? ???????? 11?94??? There is new information on almost a daily basis, and one of the Editors at NK is adding details from photos of the LKn previously posted in their Galleries (and a few new photos)! It's GREAT stuff!!! Regards, David L. Rickman -----Original Message----- From: davidlrickman To: fpspace Sent: Tue, Sep 6, 2011 9:36 pm Subject: [FPSPACE] Antenna Question: Lonokhod vs. Lunniy Korabl FPSpacers, One more question on the Lunniy Korabl: The antenna on two of the remaining Lunniy Korabl look similar to that used on some soviet satellites (such as Lunokhod, Venera, Mars). Are the antennae on the Lunniy Korabl the real design, or are they simplifications of the same type of antenna displayed on these other satellites?? Here's a photo for comparison: http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6084/6123054828_551405688e_b.jpg Does anybody know of any other examples of the type of antenna displayed on the LK? Curiously, David L. Rickman _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From japio at dds.nl Fri Sep 9 03:43:14 2011 From: japio at dds.nl (Jakob Terweij) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 09:43:14 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Progress launch failure (1st in history) In-Reply-To: References: <4E551328.3010901@panix.com> Message-ID: <20110909094314.9ll3niirq5mo4k88@webmail.dds.nl> Friends, overhere in Russia everybody is in shock about this aircraft accident near Jaroslav.which killed the whole icehokky team of Jaroslav. But if you look at the facts it is not only rockets that fall from the sky, not long ago the river boat neer Kazan, not long ago this helicopter I think it was MI 26 this weekend a MIG 31 and now the Jak 42. The general opinion is that it is a lack of qualified technicians and every body wants to get rich as soon as possible, so no repair , faulty parts (second hand), to many people on the boat (sell tickets is more important than people lives.) Medwedev said yesterday that if the problems with the aircraft agencies(now 130 )not will be solved we have to buy good equipment and airplanes abroad. Still in the metro you can buy any diploma or other paper necessary. Young people are not going to work in Factories like Energya and earn 500 dollars a month, they are working abroad or in commercial firms. Now in Energya the old people are leaving and there is no one to take their place.This is showing every where in Russia. Jakob Quoting James E Oberg : > From Altay Region -- reports of an explosion... > > "Explosion was of such force that for 100 kilometers nearly all glass > shattered from the windows. I live here 40 years, we became accustomed to > the fact that fall the steps (carrier rockets), but there was no such strong > explosion, not once", said Borisov. > > > > According to him, there is no information about the victims as yet "and > there couldn't be", since it's already night and this locality is almost > inaccessible. The data about that, are whether there are victims, there won't > be any earlier than 11.00 AM local time (8.00 msk), since to reach them will > be either on helicopters or on the tankettes, he noted. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Jones" > To: "FPSpace" > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:05 AM > Subject: [FPSPACE] Progress launch failure (1st in history) > > >> For the first time ever, a Progress launch failed today. >> Communications was lost during the 3rd stage burn and the spacecraft >> failed to reach orbit. >> >> Given that this is the same launcher used to launch crews to ISS, and >> there's no current alternative, any interruption in future flights is >> very bad news for ISS. >> _______________________________________________ >> FPSPACE mailing list >> FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >> http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace >> > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace Jakob Terweij j van Lennepstraat 249C 1053 JD Amsterdam +31651549606 From jameseoberg at comcast.net Fri Sep 9 09:36:57 2011 From: jameseoberg at comcast.net (James E Oberg) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 08:36:57 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] Progress launch failure (1st in history) References: <4E551328.3010901@panix.com> <20110909094314.9ll3niirq5mo4k88@webmail.dds.nl> Message-ID: Thanks, Jacob, and we grieve with the victims and their loved ones. Only through a proper diagnosis and a sensible remedy will these disasters be brought under control. It may take time. What will happen next, all across the hi-tech sprectrum, is cause for justifiable alarm, in my humble opinion. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jakob Terweij" To: Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 2:43 AM Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Progress launch failure (1st in history) > > Friends, > overhere in Russia everybody is in shock about this aircraft accident > near Jaroslav.which killed the whole icehokky team of Jaroslav. > But if you look at the facts it is not only rockets that fall from the > sky, not long ago the river boat neer Kazan, not long ago this helicopter > I think it was MI 26 this weekend a MIG 31 and now the Jak 42. > The general opinion is that it is a lack of qualified technicians and > every body wants to get rich as soon as possible, so no repair , faulty > parts (second hand), to many people on the boat (sell tickets is more > important than people lives.) > Medwedev said yesterday that if the problems with the aircraft > agencies(now 130 )not will be solved we have to buy good equipment and > airplanes abroad. > Still in the metro you can buy any diploma or other paper necessary. > Young people are not going to work in Factories like Energya and earn 500 > dollars a month, they are working abroad or in commercial firms. > Now in Energya the old people are leaving and there is no one to take > their place.This is showing every where in Russia. > > Jakob > > > > > > Quoting James E Oberg : > >> From Altay Region -- reports of an explosion... >> >> "Explosion was of such force that for 100 kilometers nearly all glass >> shattered from the windows. I live here 40 years, we became accustomed to >> the fact that fall the steps (carrier rockets), but there was no such >> strong >> explosion, not once", said Borisov. >> >> >> >> According to him, there is no information about the victims as yet "and >> there couldn't be", since it's already night and this locality is almost >> inaccessible. The data about that, are whether there are victims, there >> won't >> be any earlier than 11.00 AM local time (8.00 msk), since to reach them >> will >> be either on helicopters or on the tankettes, he noted. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Jones" >> To: "FPSpace" >> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:05 AM >> Subject: [FPSPACE] Progress launch failure (1st in history) >> >> >>> For the first time ever, a Progress launch failed today. >>> Communications was lost during the 3rd stage burn and the spacecraft >>> failed to reach orbit. >>> >>> Given that this is the same launcher used to launch crews to ISS, and >>> there's no current alternative, any interruption in future flights is >>> very bad news for ISS. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> FPSPACE mailing list >>> FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >>> http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> FPSPACE mailing list >> FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >> http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > > > > > > Jakob Terweij > j van Lennepstraat 249C > 1053 JD Amsterdam > +31651549606 > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace From pjp961 at svol.net Fri Sep 9 11:34:58 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 11:34:58 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Quality control issues of Russian high tech In-Reply-To: <20110909094314.9ll3niirq5mo4k88@webmail.dds.nl> Message-ID: <4e6a3235.52ade00a.34c8.5e54@mx.google.com> Quality control has always been the Achilles heel of Russia's prodigious technological prowess. If one visits the CIA's FOIA Electronic Reading Room on the Web, one can find numerous (I would say near-legion) reports on the USSR which always have a lot of commentary about bad quality-control, no matter the subject. I just received recently a National Intelligence Estimate from October 1968 on "Soviet Strategic Attack Forces," and I was dumbfounded to read that the US military stated to US policy makers that the "Reliability" (in percent) of the major Soviet ICBM systems at the time was far from optimal (nothing in the 90% range at all). The "Force Reliability" (as in that the warhead would actually get over to the United States, and maybe explode, and perhaps explode somewhere near where it was allegedly targeted) was shown to be the following. SS-7 70-75% Reliability. SS-8 55-60% Reliabliity. SS-9 70-75% Reliablity. SS-11 75-80% Reliability. SS-13 55-60% Reliability. These "Top Secret All Source Restricted Data" factoids are quite telling. I would also say shocking. -----Original Message----- From: fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org [mailto:fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org] On Behalf Of Jakob Terweij Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 3:43 AM To: fpspace at www.friends-partners.org Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Progress launch failure (1st in history) Friends, overhere in Russia everybody is in shock about this aircraft accident near Jaroslav.which killed the whole icehokky team of Jaroslav. But if you look at the facts it is not only rockets that fall from the sky, not long ago the river boat neer Kazan, not long ago this helicopter I think it was MI 26 this weekend a MIG 31 and now the Jak 42. The general opinion is that it is a lack of qualified technicians and every body wants to get rich as soon as possible, so no repair , faulty parts (second hand), to many people on the boat (sell tickets is more important than people lives.) Medwedev said yesterday that if the problems with the aircraft agencies(now 130 )not will be solved we have to buy good equipment and airplanes abroad. Still in the metro you can buy any diploma or other paper necessary. Young people are not going to work in Factories like Energya and earn 500 dollars a month, they are working abroad or in commercial firms. Now in Energya the old people are leaving and there is no one to take their place.This is showing every where in Russia. Jakob Quoting James E Oberg : > From Altay Region -- reports of an explosion... > > "Explosion was of such force that for 100 kilometers nearly all glass > shattered from the windows. I live here 40 years, we became accustomed to > the fact that fall the steps (carrier rockets), but there was no such strong > explosion, not once", said Borisov. > > > > According to him, there is no information about the victims as yet "and > there couldn't be", since it's already night and this locality is almost > inaccessible. The data about that, are whether there are victims, there won't > be any earlier than 11.00 AM local time (8.00 msk), since to reach them will > be either on helicopters or on the tankettes, he noted. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Jones" > To: "FPSpace" > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:05 AM > Subject: [FPSPACE] Progress launch failure (1st in history) > > >> For the first time ever, a Progress launch failed today. >> Communications was lost during the 3rd stage burn and the spacecraft >> failed to reach orbit. >> >> Given that this is the same launcher used to launch crews to ISS, and >> there's no current alternative, any interruption in future flights is >> very bad news for ISS. >> _______________________________________________ >> FPSPACE mailing list >> FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >> http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace >> > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace Jakob Terweij j van Lennepstraat 249C 1053 JD Amsterdam +31651549606 _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace From svengrahn at bahnhof.se Fri Sep 9 14:06:15 2011 From: svengrahn at bahnhof.se (Sven Grahn) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 20:06:15 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Quality control issues of Russian high tech In-Reply-To: <4e6a3235.52ade00a.34c8.5e54@mx.google.com> References: <4e6a3235.52ade00a.34c8.5e54@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <55503DA2-A5F7-4507-BB8A-676913660F80@bahnhof.se> What are the corresponding US figures? Sven Skickat fr?n min iPhone Sven Grahn R?ttviksv?gen 44 192 71 Sollentuna Sweden Mobile: +46 70 3443844 svengrahn at Bahnhof.se www.svengrahn.pp.se Skype sven.grahn1 9 sep 2011 kl. 17:34 skrev "Peter Pesavento" : > Quality control has always been the Achilles heel of Russia's prodigious > technological prowess. > > > If one visits the CIA's FOIA Electronic Reading Room on the Web, one can > find numerous (I would say near-legion) reports on the USSR which always > have a lot of commentary about bad quality-control, no matter the subject. > > I just received recently a National Intelligence Estimate from October 1968 > on "Soviet Strategic Attack Forces," and I was dumbfounded to read that the > US military stated to US policy makers that the "Reliability" (in percent) > of the major Soviet ICBM systems at the time was far from optimal (nothing > in the 90% range at all). The "Force Reliability" (as in that the warhead > would actually get over to the United States, and maybe explode, and perhaps > explode somewhere near where it was allegedly targeted) was shown to be the > following. > > SS-7 70-75% Reliability. > > SS-8 55-60% Reliabliity. > > SS-9 70-75% Reliablity. > > SS-11 75-80% Reliability. > > SS-13 55-60% Reliability. > > These "Top Secret All Source Restricted Data" factoids are quite telling. I > would also say shocking. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org > [mailto:fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org] On Behalf Of Jakob Terweij > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 3:43 AM > To: fpspace at www.friends-partners.org > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Progress launch failure (1st in history) > > > Friends, > overhere in Russia everybody is in shock about this aircraft accident > near Jaroslav.which killed the whole icehokky team of Jaroslav. > But if you look at the facts it is not only rockets that fall from the > sky, not long ago the river boat neer Kazan, not long ago this > helicopter I think it was MI 26 this weekend a MIG 31 and now the Jak > 42. > The general opinion is that it is a lack of qualified technicians and > every body wants to get rich as soon as possible, so no repair , > faulty parts (second hand), to many people on the boat (sell tickets > is more important than people lives.) > Medwedev said yesterday that if the problems with the aircraft > agencies(now 130 )not will be solved we have to buy good equipment and > airplanes abroad. > Still in the metro you can buy any diploma or other paper necessary. > Young people are not going to work in Factories like Energya and earn > 500 dollars a month, they are working abroad or in commercial firms. > Now in Energya the old people are leaving and there is no one to take > their place.This is showing every where in Russia. > > Jakob > > > > > > Quoting James E Oberg : > >> From Altay Region -- reports of an explosion... >> >> "Explosion was of such force that for 100 kilometers nearly all glass >> shattered from the windows. I live here 40 years, we became accustomed to >> the fact that fall the steps (carrier rockets), but there was no such > strong >> explosion, not once", said Borisov. >> >> >> >> According to him, there is no information about the victims as yet "and >> there couldn't be", since it's already night and this locality is almost >> inaccessible. The data about that, are whether there are victims, there > won't >> be any earlier than 11.00 AM local time (8.00 msk), since to reach them > will >> be either on helicopters or on the tankettes, he noted. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Jones" >> To: "FPSpace" >> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 10:05 AM >> Subject: [FPSPACE] Progress launch failure (1st in history) >> >> >>> For the first time ever, a Progress launch failed today. >>> Communications was lost during the 3rd stage burn and the spacecraft >>> failed to reach orbit. >>> >>> Given that this is the same launcher used to launch crews to ISS, and >>> there's no current alternative, any interruption in future flights is >>> very bad news for ISS. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> FPSPACE mailing list >>> FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >>> http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> FPSPACE mailing list >> FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >> http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > > > > > > Jakob Terweij > j van Lennepstraat 249C > 1053 JD Amsterdam > +31651549606 > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace From davidlrickman at aol.com Fri Sep 9 15:09:12 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 15:09:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Soviet and American Lunar Program. A Comparative Analysis Message-ID: <8CE3D3B181C1FF0-D48-86BD4@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> Hello FPSpacers, This is a very good article. President John F. Kennedy said that the United States "should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the earth." But did the United States actually follow this goal? This article suggest that when comparing the plan of the United States to the plan of the Soviet Union, it is apparent that US didn't actually follow that goal. It's worth reading: http://ligaspace.my1.ru/news/2011-07-07-315 Best Regards, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Sat Sep 10 16:56:02 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 16:56:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] =?utf-8?b?SW4gTmVlZCBvZiAgOC8yMDExICLQoNCQ0JTQmNCeIiBh?= =?utf-8?q?nd_Luna-17_Images?= Message-ID: <8CE3E132F082B18-1854-ACA7@webmail-m036.sysops.aol.com> Hello FPSpacers, I am in need of high-resolution photos of ????-17 similar to the views seen in these two images: http://fiz.1september.ru/2010/06/7-2.jpg http://gorod.tomsk.ru/uploads/34046/1265314991/lh3.jpg In addition to those I am looking for high resolution scans (300 dpi or greater) of a couple of photos found in the 8/2011 issue of "?????", specifically photos 2 and 3 found on pages 8 and 9. I have this issue in DjVu, but this format is horrible for its' reproduction of images. Many Thanks in advance! Best regards, David L. Rickman DavidLRickman at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cdomashnev at acm.org Sat Sep 10 18:39:24 2011 From: cdomashnev at acm.org (Constantine Domashnev) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2011 18:39:24 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Quality control issues of Russian high tech In-Reply-To: <4e6a3235.52ade00a.34c8.5e54@mx.google.com> Message-ID: * The "Force Reliability" (as in that the warhead would actually get over to the United States, and maybe explode, and perhaps explode somewhere near where it was allegedly targeted) was shown to be the following. SS-7 70-75% Reliability. *Did the Estimate definitively state the 'suboptimal' reliability was due exclusively to poor quality control? Hypothetically, in this case operational issues and/or guidance problems can be contributing factors as well.KD -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drwoods at stny.rr.com Mon Sep 12 10:24:14 2011 From: drwoods at stny.rr.com (David R. Woods) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 10:24:14 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Launch Statistics of the Soyuz Rocket Family Message-ID: <4E6E160E.1080600@stny.rr.com> The latest Space Report by Jonathan McDowell has an interesting section on Launch Statistics of the Soyuz Rocket Family, in addition to details on recent launches. Details can be found at: http://www.planet4589.org/jsr.html. This is an excellent free service with subscription details at: http://www.planet4589.org/mailman/listinfo/jsr. From davidlrickman at aol.com Mon Sep 12 22:29:38 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 22:29:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Lunniy Korabl Mystery Object Question: Answered! Message-ID: <8CE3FD41E9B8A76-2E08-3D549@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> Hello FPSpacers, First of all, let me thank those people who have helped me analyze the Lunniy Korabl, and especially those who have provided what is at times the most basic and educational source of information ... photographs. With your help I am almost to the point of knowing this vehicle inside and out. A few weeks ago I posed a question to this group relating to the identify and function of this nozzle-like structure located at the base of the Orientation Engine Block on the Lunniy Korabl: ( http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6085/6058168828_c7ebaf63ca.jpg ) As it turns out the mystery object is neither a conical antenna, nor a zero-torque thruster, nor a gas bleeding nozzle of any kind. It is the base of one of the four upper attachment points which hold the framework used to protect the LK from from its' own launch fairing. I kid you not. Best regards, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Wed Sep 14 10:27:57 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES ) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 14:27:57 +0000 Subject: [FPSPACE] Fwd: NASA Announces Major Decisions For Future Human Spaceflight Message-ID: ---------- Sent from AT&T Wireless using Windows Live Hotmail -----Original Message----- From: KSC News Center Sent: 1/1/0001 12:00:00 AM To: KSC News Center Subject: NASA Announces Major Decisions For Future Human Spaceflight Sept. 14, 2011 Allard Beutel Kennedy Space Center, Fla. 321-867-2468 allard.beutel at nasa.gov Michael Braukus/J.D. Harrington Headquarters, Washington 202-358-1979/5241 michael.j.braukus at nasa.gov/j.d.harrington at nasa.gov MEDIA ADVISORY: M11-194 NASA ANNOUNCES MAJOR DECISIONS FOR FUTURE HUMAN SPACEFLIGHT WASHINGTON -- NASA leaders will participate in two media events Wednesday, Sept. 14, to discuss the new Space Launch System that will take American astronauts farther into space than ever before. At 10 a.m. EDT, NASA Administrator Charles Bolden will join members of Congress, including Sens. Kay Bailey Hutchison and Bill Nelson, for a news conference in SDG-50 on the ground floor of the Senate Dirksen Building in Washington. The event will be webcast live on the Senate Commerce Committee's website at: http://commerce.senate.gov At 12 p.m. NASA will hold a background media teleconference with William Gerstenmaier, associate administrator for NASA's Human Exploration and Operations (HEO) Mission Directorate; Doug Cooke, deputy associate administrator for HEO; NASA Chief Financial Officer Beth Robinson and other senior managers. To participate, reporters must e-mail their name, media affiliation and telephone number to J.D. Harrington at j.d.harrington at nasa.gov by 11:30 a.m. EDT Wednesday. Audio of the teleconference will be streamed live at: http://www.nasa.gov/newsaudio For more information about NASA's plans for future human space exploration, visit: http://www.nasa.gov/exploration -end- To subscribe to the list, send a message to: ksc-subscribe at newsletters.nasa.gov To remove your address from the list, send a message to: ksc-unsubscribe at newsletters.nasa.gov -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjp961 at svol.net Wed Sep 14 16:43:33 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 16:43:33 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] delay of the launching of the Chinese space station module....has it been rescheduled? Message-ID: <4e711242.06ca640a.7f1b.ffffa537@mx.google.com> Since the first 10 days of September have come and gone, without the launching of China's first space station module, does anyone know if it has been announced as to its rescheduling? If you know, please provide the update details. Thanks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rcb at netcabo.pt Wed Sep 14 16:53:00 2011 From: rcb at netcabo.pt (Rui C. Barbosa) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 21:53:00 +0100 Subject: [FPSPACE] delay of the launching of the Chinese space stationmodule....has it been rescheduled? In-Reply-To: <4e711242.06ca640a.7f1b.ffffa537@mx.google.com> References: <4e711242.06ca640a.7f1b.ffffa537@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <9EE820A2E01C4B289B0677DFB0092758@RuiBarbosaPC> Hi! Yes, the launch was delayed because of the CZ-2C / Shi Jian 11-04 accident. Rumors say that the launch can take place on September 27. BR?s Rui C. Barbosa www.zenite.nu/orbita www.carris-geres.blogspot.com Braga - Portugal From: Peter Pesavento Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:43 PM To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: [FPSPACE] delay of the launching of the Chinese space stationmodule....has it been rescheduled? Since the first 10 days of September have come and gone, without the launching of China?s first space station module, does anyone know if it has been announced as to its rescheduling? If you know, please provide the update details. Thanks. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drwoods at stny.rr.com Thu Sep 15 09:13:15 2011 From: drwoods at stny.rr.com (David R. Woods) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:13:15 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] NASA Announces Design for New Deep Space Exploration System Message-ID: <4E71F9EB.4010001@stny.rr.com> NASA is ready to move forward with the development of the Space Launch System -- an advanced heavy-lift launch vehicle that will provide an entirely new national capability for human exploration beyond Earth's orbit. The Space Launch System will give the nation a safe, affordable and sustainable means of reaching beyond our current limits and opening up new discoveries from the unique vantage point of space. The Space Launch System, or SLS, will be designed to carry the Orion Multi-Purpose Crew Vehicle, as well as important cargo, equipment and science experiments to Earth's orbit and destinations beyond. Additionally, the SLS will serve as a back up for commercial and international partner transportation services to the International Space Station. "This launch system will create good-paying American jobs, ensure continued U.S. leadership in space, and inspire millions around the world," NASA Administrator Charles Bolden said. "President Obama challenged us to be bold and dream big, and that's exactly what we are doing at NASA. While I was proud to fly on the space shuttle, tomorrow's explorers will now dream of one day walking on Mars." The SLS rocket will incorporate technological investments from the Space Shuttle Program and the Constellation Program in order to take advantage of proven hardware and cutting-edge tooling and manufacturing technology that will significantly reduce development and operations costs. It will use a liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen propulsion system, which will include the RS-25D/E from the Space Shuttle Program for the core stage and the J-2X engine for the upper stage. SLS will also use solid rocket boosters for the initial development flights, while follow-on boosters will be competed based on performance requirements and affordability considerations. The SLS will have an initial lift capacity of 70 metric tons. That's more than 154,000 pounds, or 77 tons, roughly the weight of 40 sport utility vehicles. The lift capacity will be evolvable to 130 metric tons -- more than 286,000 pounds, or 143 tons -- enough to lift 75 SUVs. The first developmental flight, or mission, is targeted for the end of 2017. This specific architecture was selected, largely because it utilizes an evolvable development approach, which allows NASA to address high-cost development activities early on in the program and take advantage of higher buying power before inflation erodes the available funding of a fixed budget. This architecture also enables NASA to leverage existing capabilities and lower development costs by using liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen for both the core and upper stages. Additionally, this architecture provides a modular launch vehicle that can be configured for specific mission needs using a variation of common elements. NASA may not need to lift 130 metric tons for each mission and the flexibility of this modular architecture allows the agency to use different core stage, upper stage, and first-stage booster combinations to achieve the most efficient launch vehicle for the desired mission. "NASA has been making steady progress toward realizing the president's goal of deep space exploration, while doing so in a more affordable way," NASA Deputy Administrator Lori Garver said. "We have been driving down the costs on the Space Launch System and Orion contracts by adopting new ways of doing business and project hundreds of millions of dollars of savings each year." The Space Launch System will be NASA's first exploration-class vehicle since the Saturn V took American astronauts to the moon over 40 years ago. With its superior lift capability, the SLS will expand our reach in the solar system and allow us to explore cis-lunar space, near-Earth asteroids, Mars and its moons and beyond. We will learn more about how the solar system formed, where Earth's water and organics originated and how life might be sustained in places far from our Earth's atmosphere and expand the boundaries of human exploration. These discoveries will change the way we understand ourselves, our planet, and its place in the universe. http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/systems/sls/sls1.html From cpgorski at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 09:37:36 2011 From: cpgorski at gmail.com (Christopher Gorski) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 09:37:36 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] NASA Announces Design for New Deep Space Exploration System In-Reply-To: <4E71F9EB.4010001@stny.rr.com> References: <4E71F9EB.4010001@stny.rr.com> Message-ID: Anybody else curious why they've stuck with RS-25s? I thought they were terribly expensive because they were designed for 7.5 hours service and fifty-something restarts. Thought the RS-68 was supposed to be a good high-thrust disposable alternative...? or does "D/E" now mean a cheaper version? I'd guess politics, but I think they're both from Pratt & Whitney / Rocketdyne... --me On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 9:13 AM, David R. Woods wrote: > NASA is ready to move forward with the development of the Space Launch > System -- an advanced heavy-lift launch vehicle that will provide an > entirely new national capability for human exploration beyond Earth's orbit. > The Space Launch System will give the nation a safe, affordable and > sustainable means of reaching beyond our current limits and opening up new > discoveries from the unique vantage point of space. > > The Space Launch System, or SLS, will be designed to carry the Orion > Multi-Purpose Crew Vehicle, as well as important cargo, equipment and > science experiments to Earth's orbit and destinations beyond. Additionally, > the SLS will serve as a back up for commercial and international partner > transportation services to the International Space Station. > > "This launch system will create good-paying American jobs, ensure continued > U.S. leadership in space, and inspire millions around the world," NASA > Administrator Charles Bolden said. "President Obama challenged us to be bold > and dream big, and that's exactly what we are doing at NASA. While I was > proud to fly on the space shuttle, tomorrow's explorers will now dream of > one day walking on Mars." > > The SLS rocket will incorporate technological investments from the Space > Shuttle Program and the Constellation Program in order to take advantage of > proven hardware and cutting-edge tooling and manufacturing technology that > will significantly reduce development and operations costs. It will use a > liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen propulsion system, which will include the > RS-25D/E from the Space Shuttle Program for the core stage and the J-2X > engine for the upper stage. SLS will also use solid rocket boosters for the > initial development flights, while follow-on boosters will be competed based > on performance requirements and affordability considerations. The SLS will > have an initial lift capacity of 70 metric tons. That's more than 154,000 > pounds, or 77 tons, roughly the weight of 40 sport utility vehicles. The > lift capacity will be evolvable to 130 metric tons -- more than 286,000 > pounds, or 143 tons -- enough to lift 75 SUVs. The first developmental > flight, or mission, is targeted for the end of 2017. > > This specific architecture was selected, largely because it utilizes an > evolvable development approach, which allows NASA to address high-cost > development activities early on in the program and take advantage of higher > buying power before inflation erodes the available funding of a fixed > budget. This architecture also enables NASA to leverage existing > capabilities and lower development costs by using liquid hydrogen and liquid > oxygen for both the core and upper stages. Additionally, this architecture > provides a modular launch vehicle that can be configured for specific > mission needs using a variation of common elements. NASA may not need to > lift 130 metric tons for each mission and the flexibility of this modular > architecture allows the agency to use different core stage, upper stage, and > first-stage booster combinations to achieve the most efficient launch > vehicle for the desired mission. > > "NASA has been making steady progress toward realizing the president's goal > of deep space exploration, while doing so in a more affordable way," NASA > Deputy Administrator Lori Garver said. "We have been driving down the costs > on the Space Launch System and Orion contracts by adopting new ways of doing > business and project hundreds of millions of dollars of savings each year." > > The Space Launch System will be NASA's first exploration-class vehicle > since the Saturn V took American astronauts to the moon over 40 years ago. > With its superior lift capability, the SLS will expand our reach in the > solar system and allow us to explore cis-lunar space, near-Earth asteroids, > Mars and its moons and beyond. We will learn more about how the solar system > formed, where Earth's water and organics originated and how life might be > sustained in places far from our Earth's atmosphere and expand the > boundaries of human exploration. These discoveries will change the way we > understand ourselves, our planet, and its place in the universe. > > http://www.nasa.gov/**exploration/systems/sls/sls1.**html > > ______________________________**_________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.**org > http://www.friends-partners.**org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave.harland at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 15 09:48:05 2011 From: dave.harland at ntlworld.com (David M Harland) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 14:48:05 +0100 Subject: [FPSPACE] NASA Announces Design for New Deep Space Exploration System In-Reply-To: References: <4E71F9EB.4010001@stny.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20110915144636.03391e58@pop3.ntlworld.com> At 14:37 15/09/2011, Christopher Gorski wrote: >Anybody else curious why they've stuck with RS-25s? I thought they >were terribly expensive because they were designed for 7.5 hours >service and fifty-something restarts. Thought the RS-68 was >supposed to be a good high-thrust disposable alternative...? The story I heard was that 200 mods would be required to man-rate the RS-68. Of course, what they should really do is limit the heavy-lifter to unmanned payloads and send crews up in one of these commercial spacecraft, but having fostered such private ventures NASA seems determined to undermine them. dmh >or does "D/E" now mean a cheaper version? > >I'd guess politics, but I think they're both from Pratt & Whitney / >Rocketdyne... > >--me > > >On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 9:13 AM, David R. Woods ><drwoods at stny.rr.com> wrote: >NASA is ready to move forward with the development of the Space >Launch System -- an advanced heavy-lift launch vehicle that will >provide an entirely new national capability for human exploration >beyond Earth's orbit. The Space Launch System will give the nation a >safe, affordable and sustainable means of reaching beyond our >current limits and opening up new discoveries from the unique >vantage point of space. > >The Space Launch System, or SLS, will be designed to carry the Orion >Multi-Purpose Crew Vehicle, as well as important cargo, equipment >and science experiments to Earth's orbit and destinations beyond. >Additionally, the SLS will serve as a back up for commercial and >international partner transportation services to the International >Space Station. > >"This launch system will create good-paying American jobs, ensure >continued U.S. leadership in space, and inspire millions around the >world," NASA Administrator Charles Bolden said. "President Obama >challenged us to be bold and dream big, and that's exactly what we >are doing at NASA. While I was proud to fly on the space shuttle, >tomorrow's explorers will now dream of one day walking on Mars." > >The SLS rocket will incorporate technological investments from the >Space Shuttle Program and the Constellation Program in order to take >advantage of proven hardware and cutting-edge tooling and >manufacturing technology that will significantly reduce development >and operations costs. It will use a liquid hydrogen and liquid >oxygen propulsion system, which will include the RS-25D/E from the >Space Shuttle Program for the core stage and the J-2X engine for the >upper stage. SLS will also use solid rocket boosters for the initial >development flights, while follow-on boosters will be competed based >on performance requirements and affordability considerations. The >SLS will have an initial lift capacity of 70 metric tons. That's >more than 154,000 pounds, or 77 tons, roughly the weight of 40 sport >utility vehicles. The lift capacity will be evolvable to 130 metric >tons -- more than 286,000 pounds, or 143 tons -- enough to lift 75 >SUVs. The first developmental flight, or mission, is targeted for >the end of 2017. > >This specific architecture was selected, largely because it utilizes >an evolvable development approach, which allows NASA to address >high-cost development activities early on in the program and take >advantage of higher buying power before inflation erodes the >available funding of a fixed budget. This architecture also enables >NASA to leverage existing capabilities and lower development costs >by using liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen for both the core and >upper stages. Additionally, this architecture provides a modular >launch vehicle that can be configured for specific mission needs >using a variation of common elements. NASA may not need to lift 130 >metric tons for each mission and the flexibility of this modular >architecture allows the agency to use different core stage, upper >stage, and first-stage booster combinations to achieve the most >efficient launch vehicle for the desired mission. > >"NASA has been making steady progress toward realizing the >president's goal of deep space exploration, while doing so in a more >affordable way," NASA Deputy Administrator Lori Garver said. "We >have been driving down the costs on the Space Launch System and >Orion contracts by adopting new ways of doing business and project >hundreds of millions of dollars of savings each year." > >The Space Launch System will be NASA's first exploration-class >vehicle since the Saturn V took American astronauts to the moon over >40 years ago. With its superior lift capability, the SLS will expand >our reach in the solar system and allow us to explore cis-lunar >space, near-Earth asteroids, Mars and its moons and beyond. We will >learn more about how the solar system formed, where Earth's water >and organics originated and how life might be sustained in places >far from our Earth's atmosphere and expand the boundaries of human >exploration. These discoveries will change the way we understand >ourselves, our planet, and its place in the universe. > >http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/systems/sls/sls1.html > >_______________________________________________ >FPSPACE mailing list >FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > >_______________________________________________ >FPSPACE mailing list >FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjp961 at svol.net Thu Sep 15 10:36:06 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:36:06 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] FW: NASA Announces Design for New Deep Space ExplorationSystem Message-ID: <4e720d6e.0d73cd0a.3f8e.ffffc05b@mx.google.com> Is this new Heavy Lift Launch System real? By that, I mean, does it have funding? What kind of funding? In this current economic environment where the Republicans want to slash and burn just about everything, how realistic are the prospects of this launcher system actually getting adequate funding for its development--and not just for one year or two? How about through 2017 (alleged timetable of first launch)? This smells like d?j? vu all over again with a previous rocket--which actually lifted off (in mostly mock-up mode) last year (was it), before it got cancelled? I don?t believe this pipe dream until there is dedicated, sustained funding. And it may not get that. Even the trips to asteroids and to Mars--eh, those are just paper studies. (Which yes, are better than hand-waving proclamations.) The Apollo trip to Aristarchus crater (if I have the right crater identified, if memory serves) had more of a realistic chance in my view. From n_horsley at msn.com Thu Sep 15 06:55:37 2011 From: n_horsley at msn.com (Nathanael Horsley) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:55:37 +0000 Subject: [FPSPACE] fpspace@friends-partners.org Message-ID: yo here is something I came across last night http://www.nbci7review.com/?date=09142011&article=3029 talk to you later From drwoods at stny.rr.com Thu Sep 15 11:31:18 2011 From: drwoods at stny.rr.com (David R. Woods) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 11:31:18 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] NASA Announces Design for New Deep Space Exploration System Message-ID: <4E721A46.3040608@stny.rr.com> It is interesting to see coverage on this subject from the Russian side. Here is a rough machine translation: ************************************************** http://tvroscosmos.ru/frm/kosmostv/vesti/2011/vesti150911.php NASA to built the most powerful rocket in history NASA engineers say that they have started work on the most powerful space rocket in history. It will fly not only to the ISS, but also much more - where has not yet been a single person. Its purpose will be for asteroids, moons of Mars - and, of course, the Red Planet itself. True, to achieve its planned no sooner than twenty years. The project - it is only computer animation, but represent it in Washington as a breakthrough in space exploration. This missile - a compilation of the technologies that NASA has accumulated over recent decades: striking five engines, which are so reminiscent of the shuttle boosters. Almost certainly the new rocket will be flown for the ship "Orion", which is part of the "Constellation", which was recently cancelled by the Obama administration. Countdown to go - before the start of six years. "What else do we do in space? After 30 years in orbit is quite obvious we need to move on. It should be open," - said the director of the Department of History of Astronautics NASA Valerie Neal. The missile has not yet received a name - its scientists dryly call it the "system launched in space." This includes the ability to deliver into orbit from 70 to 100 tons. It's not very much when you consider that the carrier "Saturn 5" - the brainchild of designer Wernher von Braun, with which the Americans flew to the moon, lifted into orbit up to 140 tons. The fact that it is possible to repeat the elements of the U.S. space program 60, the head of NASA calls a "new chapter in space". 35 billion, plus another three billion each year - as many will cost the space truck. This premier concludes many months of controversy and congressional scholars, because at present, NASA has not a ship that could deliver to orbit the astronauts and cargo - the first time in half a century. When in orbit, for example, it will not be collected in installments sverhkorabl the future, the appointment of the missiles - just pull heavy loads. For example, the massive new-generation communications satellites. If the parameters and the appearance of the rocket is not a secret, which Washington intends to send to this space technology astronauts, it is not clear. If four years ago, the Republican administration going back to the moon and building a space base there, then Barack Obama, abandoned these plans, he said aloud to a manned mission to an asteroid in 2015. "Researchers dream that one day man will walk on Mars" - a vaguely put NASA chief Charles Bolden, demonstrating a new missile cartoon on the Hill. From routierx at tpg.com.au Thu Sep 15 11:44:40 2011 From: routierx at tpg.com.au (Brett & Sue) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 01:44:40 +1000 Subject: [FPSPACE] THIS EMAIL WAS SPAM ---> RE: fpspace@friends-partners.org Message-ID: <000c01cc73be$62d66520$28832f60$@tpg.com.au> -----Original Message----- From: fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org [mailto:fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org] On Behalf Of Nathanael Horsley Sent: Thursday, 15 September 2011 8:56 PM To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: [FPSPACE] fpspace at friends-partners.org yo here is something I came across last night http://www.nbci7review.com/?date=09142011&article=3029 talk to you later _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace From pjp961 at svol.net Thu Sep 15 17:24:08 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 17:24:08 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] new Kepler satellite discovery: planet circling two suns (200 light years away from Earth) Message-ID: <4e726d0f.d0c8e30a.50b0.643d@mx.google.com> >From Agency France Presse (via Raw Story) http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/09/15/u-s-astronomers-find-planet-with-two-s uns/ U.S. astronomers find planet with two Suns By Agence France-Presse September 15, 2011 @ 3:50 pm WASHINGTON - US astronomers said Thursday they have discovered the first planet that is orbiting two Suns, much like the fictional home of Luke Skywalker featured in Star Wars. Skywalker's native planet of Tatooine was hot and desert-like, but this planet, called Kepler-16b, is a freezing cold world about the size of Saturn, orbiting two parent Suns in a near perfect circle about 200 light years away. The planet was glimpsed with the US space agency's Kepler space telescope, which monitors the brightness of 155,000 stars, according to the research published in the journal Science. "This discovery is stunning," said co-author Alan Boss of the Carnegie Institution for Science Department of Terrestrial Magnetism. "Once again, what used to be science fiction has turned into reality." While astronomers have previously glimpsed planets they believed were orbiting two stars, they had never before seen one actually passing in front of its two Suns so this discovery offers the first proof. "Kepler-16b is the first confirmed, unambiguous example of a circumbinary planet -- a planet orbiting not one, but two stars," said co-author Josh Carter of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics. "Once again, we're finding that our solar system is only one example of the variety of planetary systems nature can create." If there were people on Kepler-16b, they could relax to the view of a double sunset, but such a scenario is highly unlikely due to the planet's extreme frigid surface temperature of -100 to -150 Fahrenheit (-73 to -101 Celsius). The chill is likely due to the fact that even though the planet has two Suns which it orbits every 229 days at a distance of 65 million miles (105 million kilometers), they are smaller and cooler than our single Sun. One of Kepler-16b's Suns is 20 percent as massive as ours, and the other is 69 percent as massive. While the planet orbits them, the two Suns dance with each other in an "eccentric 41-day orbit," the study said. The study was led by Kepler scientist Laurance Doyle of the California-based SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) Institute. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Fri Sep 16 14:15:09 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 14:15:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Problem with Novosti Kosmonavtiki Forum? Message-ID: <8CE42B3B3DA5A6E-19F4-13407@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> Hi FPSpacers, Does anybody know what's going on with the Novosti Kosmonavtiki Forum? It will only allow access to two of the subjects (Information and Manned Spaceflight) but won't even allow replies on those. The message reads, "only moderators are allowed to post/ read topics in this forum." I NEED my NK! This is driving me nuts! Thans, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From agzak at optonline.net Fri Sep 16 16:48:14 2011 From: agzak at optonline.net (Anatoly Zak) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:48:14 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Problem with Novosti Kosmonavtiki Forum? In-Reply-To: <8CE42B3B3DA5A6E-19F4-13407@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Just technical problems. Anatoly Zak http://www.RussianSpaceWeb.com On 9/16/11 2:15 PM, "davidlrickman at aol.com" wrote: > Hi FPSpacers, > > Does anybody know what's going on with the Novosti Kosmonavtiki Forum? It will > only allow access to two of the subjects (Information and Manned Spaceflight) > but won't even allow replies on those. The message reads, "only moderators are > allowed to post/ read topics in this forum." > > I NEED my NK! This is driving me nuts! > > > Thans, > > David L. Rickman > > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Fri Sep 16 16:50:53 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:50:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Problem with Novosti Kosmonavtiki Forum? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CE42C975851D9F-19F4-15900@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> Yes, Igor Afanasev told me they are working on it. -----Original Message----- From: Anatoly Zak To: Untitled Sent: Fri, Sep 16, 2011 12:48 pm Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Problem with Novosti Kosmonavtiki Forum? Just technical problems. Anatoly Zak http://www.RussianSpaceWeb.com On 9/16/11 2:15 PM, "davidlrickman at aol.com" wrote: Hi FPSpacers, Does anybody know what's going on with the Novosti Kosmonavtiki Forum? It will only allow access to two of the subjects (Information and Manned Spaceflight) but won't even allow replies on those. The message reads, "only moderators are allowed to post/ read topics in this forum." I NEED my NK! This is driving me nuts! Thans, David L. Rickman _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pao.ulivi at gmail.com Sat Sep 17 09:16:51 2011 From: pao.ulivi at gmail.com (Paolo Ulivi) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:16:51 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Mariner 69: a small mystery (finally) solved Message-ID: I wanted to share something I only recently found that finally solves what for me had always been a small mystery. you may remember that the dates of the last contact with Mariner 6 and 7 are apparently not available. I knew that there had been solar conjunctions observed in spring 1970, but how long again the probes were heard was not clear. I have finally found the information in the 3rd volume of the technical memo JPL-TM-33-474 "Tracking and data system support for the Mariner Mars 1969 mission. Volume 3: Extended operations mission" ( http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19710026683) the extended mission was funded up to 30 December 1970, and it appears that telemetry was last received from both spacecraft on DOY355 (21 December 1970). Both were to be placed "in final state" on 23,29,30 December. Note also on page 70 this sentence: "Week of December 28, Mariner 7, pass 643: Downlink signal was lost from the spacecraft because the spacecraft lost attitude control and began tumbling (attitude control gas supply apparently was depleted)." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Sat Sep 17 20:59:25 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 18:59:25 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Mariner 69: a small mystery (finally) solved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Paolo: I had someone remark on my blog a week or so ago that Mariner 6 and 7 transmitted for long enough to enter the Main Belt. Based on the aphelion distance he provided, this was not correct. What's your take on this question? David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:16:51 +0200 From: pao.ulivi at gmail.com To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: [FPSPACE] Mariner 69: a small mystery (finally) solved I wanted to share something I only recently found that finally solves what for me had always been a small mystery. you may remember that the dates of the last contact with Mariner 6 and 7 are apparently not available. I knew that there had been solar conjunctions observed in spring 1970, but how long again the probes were heard was not clear. I have finally found the information in the 3rd volume of the technical memo JPL-TM-33-474 "Tracking and data system support for the Mariner Mars 1969 mission. Volume 3: Extended operations mission" (http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19710026683) the extended mission was funded up to 30 December 1970, and it appears that telemetry was last received from both spacecraft on DOY355 (21 December 1970). Both were to be placed "in final state" on 23,29,30 December. Note also on page 70 this sentence: "Week of December 28, Mariner 7, pass 643: Downlink signal was lost from the spacecraft because the spacecraft lost attitude control and began tumbling (attitude control gas supply apparently was depleted)." _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Nels.Anderson at gmx.net Sat Sep 17 22:32:21 2011 From: Nels.Anderson at gmx.net (Nels Anderson) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 04:32:21 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] NASA Announces Design for New Deep Space Exploration System In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20110915144636.03391e58@pop3.ntlworld.com> References: <4E71F9EB.4010001@stny.rr.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20110915144636.03391e58@pop3.ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20110918023221.127320@gmx.net> Since the core of SLS is required to make orbit all by itself, I wonder whether the RS-68's relatively low specific impulse and thrust-to-weight ratio relative to the RS-25 might be significant factors as well. On a standard first stage which jettisoned well before reaching orbit it would matter much less. -------- Original-Nachricht -------- > Datum: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 14:48:05 +0100 > Von: David M Harland > An: Christopher Gorski , "David R. Woods" , fpspace at friends-partners.org > Betreff: Re: [FPSPACE] NASA Announces Design for New Deep Space Exploration System > At 14:37 15/09/2011, Christopher Gorski wrote: > >Anybody else curious why they've stuck with RS-25s? I thought they > >were terribly expensive because they were designed for 7.5 hours > >service and fifty-something restarts. Thought the RS-68 was > >supposed to be a good high-thrust disposable alternative...? > > > The story I heard was that 200 mods would be required to man-rate the > RS-68. Of course, what they should really do is limit the > heavy-lifter to unmanned payloads and send crews up in one of these > commercial spacecraft, but having fostered such private ventures NASA > seems determined to undermine them. > > dmh > > > >or does "D/E" now mean a cheaper version? > > > >I'd guess politics, but I think they're both from Pratt & Whitney / > >Rocketdyne... > > > >--me > > > > > >On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 9:13 AM, David R. Woods > ><drwoods at stny.rr.com> wrote: > >NASA is ready to move forward with the development of the Space > >Launch System -- an advanced heavy-lift launch vehicle that will > >provide an entirely new national capability for human exploration > >beyond Earth's orbit. The Space Launch System will give the nation a > >safe, affordable and sustainable means of reaching beyond our > >current limits and opening up new discoveries from the unique > >vantage point of space. > > > >The Space Launch System, or SLS, will be designed to carry the Orion > >Multi-Purpose Crew Vehicle, as well as important cargo, equipment > >and science experiments to Earth's orbit and destinations beyond. > >Additionally, the SLS will serve as a back up for commercial and > >international partner transportation services to the International > >Space Station. > > > >"This launch system will create good-paying American jobs, ensure > >continued U.S. leadership in space, and inspire millions around the > >world," NASA Administrator Charles Bolden said. "President Obama > >challenged us to be bold and dream big, and that's exactly what we > >are doing at NASA. While I was proud to fly on the space shuttle, > >tomorrow's explorers will now dream of one day walking on Mars." > > > >The SLS rocket will incorporate technological investments from the > >Space Shuttle Program and the Constellation Program in order to take > >advantage of proven hardware and cutting-edge tooling and > >manufacturing technology that will significantly reduce development > >and operations costs. It will use a liquid hydrogen and liquid > >oxygen propulsion system, which will include the RS-25D/E from the > >Space Shuttle Program for the core stage and the J-2X engine for the > >upper stage. SLS will also use solid rocket boosters for the initial > >development flights, while follow-on boosters will be competed based > >on performance requirements and affordability considerations. The > >SLS will have an initial lift capacity of 70 metric tons. That's > >more than 154,000 pounds, or 77 tons, roughly the weight of 40 sport > >utility vehicles. The lift capacity will be evolvable to 130 metric > >tons -- more than 286,000 pounds, or 143 tons -- enough to lift 75 > >SUVs. The first developmental flight, or mission, is targeted for > >the end of 2017. > > > >This specific architecture was selected, largely because it utilizes > >an evolvable development approach, which allows NASA to address > >high-cost development activities early on in the program and take > >advantage of higher buying power before inflation erodes the > >available funding of a fixed budget. This architecture also enables > >NASA to leverage existing capabilities and lower development costs > >by using liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen for both the core and > >upper stages. Additionally, this architecture provides a modular > >launch vehicle that can be configured for specific mission needs > >using a variation of common elements. NASA may not need to lift 130 > >metric tons for each mission and the flexibility of this modular > >architecture allows the agency to use different core stage, upper > >stage, and first-stage booster combinations to achieve the most > >efficient launch vehicle for the desired mission. > > > >"NASA has been making steady progress toward realizing the > >president's goal of deep space exploration, while doing so in a more > >affordable way," NASA Deputy Administrator Lori Garver said. "We > >have been driving down the costs on the Space Launch System and > >Orion contracts by adopting new ways of doing business and project > >hundreds of millions of dollars of savings each year." > > > >The Space Launch System will be NASA's first exploration-class > >vehicle since the Saturn V took American astronauts to the moon over > >40 years ago. With its superior lift capability, the SLS will expand > >our reach in the solar system and allow us to explore cis-lunar > >space, near-Earth asteroids, Mars and its moons and beyond. We will > >learn more about how the solar system formed, where Earth's water > >and organics originated and how life might be sustained in places > >far from our Earth's atmosphere and expand the boundaries of human > >exploration. These discoveries will change the way we understand > >ourselves, our planet, and its place in the universe. > > > >http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/systems/sls/sls1.html > > > >_______________________________________________ > >FPSPACE mailing list > >FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > >http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >FPSPACE mailing list > >FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > >http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -- NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zur?ck-Garantie! Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone From pao.ulivi at gmail.com Sun Sep 18 03:57:47 2011 From: pao.ulivi at gmail.com (Paolo Ulivi) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 09:57:47 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Mariner 69: a small mystery (finally) solved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David I must confess that I discovered the very existence of this technical memo from that guy's post on your blog. I agree with your answer: Mariner 6 had aphelion at 1.75 AU, Mariner 7 at 1.69. While a strict definition of the extent of the asteroid belt is debatable, the density of objects does not pick up until 2.1 AU. see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kirkwood_Gaps.svg Paolo On Sun, Sep 18, 2011 at 2:59 AM, David Portree wrote: > Paolo: > > I had someone remark on my blog a week or so ago that Mariner 6 and 7 > transmitted for long enough to enter the Main Belt. Based on the aphelion > distance he provided, this was not correct. What's your take on this > question? > > David S. F. Portree > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > dportree at usgs.gov > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:16:51 +0200 > From: pao.ulivi at gmail.com > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org > Subject: [FPSPACE] Mariner 69: a small mystery (finally) solved > > I wanted to share something I only recently found that finally solves what > for me had always been a small mystery. > you may remember that the dates of the last contact with Mariner 6 and 7 > are apparently not available. I knew that there had been solar conjunctions > observed in spring 1970, but how long again the probes were heard was not > clear. I have finally found the information in the 3rd volume of the > technical memo JPL-TM-33-474 "Tracking and data system support for the > Mariner Mars 1969 mission. Volume 3: Extended operations mission" ( > http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19710026683) > > the extended mission was funded up to 30 December 1970, and it appears that > telemetry was last received from both spacecraft on DOY355 (21 December > 1970). Both were to be placed "in final state" on 23,29,30 December. > Note also on page 70 this sentence: "Week of December 28, Mariner 7, pass > 643: Downlink signal was lost from the spacecraft because the spacecraft > lost attitude control and began tumbling (attitude control gas supply > apparently was depleted)." > _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Sun Sep 18 11:06:42 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 11:06:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] LK Television Camera Report In-Reply-To: <8CE43D4D6BD93AA-1864-27E02@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE43D4D6BD93AA-1864-27E02@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE442BB578B9E0-18A8-2EBD5@webmail-m004.sysops.aol.com> Hello, Fellow FPSpacers! I'm still trying to obtain or access a copy of this report: ???????? ?.?., "? ?????????? ????????????? ?????????? ??? ?????? ???????? ?? ????" It was presented to the Northwest Interregional Astronautics Federation of the Russian Federation on May 27, 2004. I've tried contacting the Chairman, but the address is no longer valid. If anyone knows the correct address for the Northwest Interregional Astronautics Federation of the Russian Federation, or (better yet) knows where I can find a copy of this report, or any other report dealing with the television camera used on the Lunniy Korabl ... I would be most grateful! Best, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kgottschalk at uwc.ac.za Sun Sep 18 11:20:25 2011 From: kgottschalk at uwc.ac.za (Keith Gottschalk) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 17:20:25 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] quick query: NASA HQ Message-ID: <4E762859020000A60001230C@uwc.ac.za> Dear Friends, way back in 1996 I visited the souvenir shop at NASA HQ in Washington DC. With all the post-2001 security tightening-ups, is that souvenir shop still there? As you enter the foyer, it was on the right-hand side. thanks, Keith. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- All Email originating from UWC is covered by disclaimer http://www.uwc.ac.za/emaildisclaimer From dsfportree at hotmail.com Sun Sep 18 16:19:12 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 14:19:12 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Mariner 69: a small mystery (finally) solved In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Paolo: Funny how these circular things happen! Glad my blog could help to solve this ancient mystery. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 09:57:47 +0200 Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Mariner 69: a small mystery (finally) solved From: pao.ulivi at gmail.com To: dsfportree at hotmail.com CC: fpspace at friends-partners.org David I must confess that I discovered the very existence of this technical memo from that guy's post on your blog. I agree with your answer: Mariner 6 had aphelion at 1.75 AU, Mariner 7 at 1.69. While a strict definition of the extent of the asteroid belt is debatable, the density of objects does not pick up until 2.1 AU. see for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kirkwood_Gaps.svg Paolo On Sun, Sep 18, 2011 at 2:59 AM, David Portree wrote: Paolo: I had someone remark on my blog a week or so ago that Mariner 6 and 7 transmitted for long enough to enter the Main Belt. Based on the aphelion distance he provided, this was not correct. What's your take on this question? David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 15:16:51 +0200 From: pao.ulivi at gmail.com To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: [FPSPACE] Mariner 69: a small mystery (finally) solved I wanted to share something I only recently found that finally solves what for me had always been a small mystery. you may remember that the dates of the last contact with Mariner 6 and 7 are apparently not available. I knew that there had been solar conjunctions observed in spring 1970, but how long again the probes were heard was not clear. I have finally found the information in the 3rd volume of the technical memo JPL-TM-33-474 "Tracking and data system support for the Mariner Mars 1969 mission. Volume 3: Extended operations mission" (http://hdl.handle.net/2060/19710026683) the extended mission was funded up to 30 December 1970, and it appears that telemetry was last received from both spacecraft on DOY355 (21 December 1970). Both were to be placed "in final state" on 23,29,30 December. Note also on page 70 this sentence: "Week of December 28, Mariner 7, pass 643: Downlink signal was lost from the spacecraft because the spacecraft lost attitude control and began tumbling (attitude control gas supply apparently was depleted)." _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Sun Sep 18 16:25:45 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 14:25:45 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] NASA Announces Design for New Deep Space Exploration System In-Reply-To: <20110918023221.127320@gmx.net> References: <4E71F9EB.4010001@stny.rr.com>, , <6.2.3.4.2.20110915144636.03391e58@pop3.ntlworld.com>, <20110918023221.127320@gmx.net> Message-ID: I don't think NASA has fostered private ventures except under duress, as part of its well-known pork distribution function, and I think that what seems like "undermining" is actually a recognition of reality (which is refreshing), since the private ventures have yet to prove themselves and are a long way from reliable heavy-lift (despite a continuous drumbeat of claims). Plus, NASA needs to develop heavy-lift to keep the Shuttle work-force employed to some degree or other (it's that pork distribution function again). David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 04:32:21 +0200 > From: Nels.Anderson at gmx.net > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] NASA Announces Design for New Deep Space Exploration System > > Since the core of SLS is required to make orbit all by itself, I wonder whether the RS-68's relatively low specific impulse and thrust-to-weight ratio relative to the RS-25 might be significant factors as well. On a standard first stage which jettisoned well before reaching orbit it would matter much less. > > -------- Original-Nachricht -------- > > Datum: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 14:48:05 +0100 > > Von: David M Harland > > An: Christopher Gorski , "David R. Woods" , fpspace at friends-partners.org > > Betreff: Re: [FPSPACE] NASA Announces Design for New Deep Space Exploration System > > > At 14:37 15/09/2011, Christopher Gorski wrote: > > >Anybody else curious why they've stuck with RS-25s? I thought they > > >were terribly expensive because they were designed for 7.5 hours > > >service and fifty-something restarts. Thought the RS-68 was > > >supposed to be a good high-thrust disposable alternative...? > > > > > > The story I heard was that 200 mods would be required to man-rate the > > RS-68. Of course, what they should really do is limit the > > heavy-lifter to unmanned payloads and send crews up in one of these > > commercial spacecraft, but having fostered such private ventures NASA > > seems determined to undermine them. > > > > dmh > > > > > > >or does "D/E" now mean a cheaper version? > > > > > >I'd guess politics, but I think they're both from Pratt & Whitney / > > >Rocketdyne... > > > > > >--me > > > > > > > > >On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 9:13 AM, David R. Woods > > ><drwoods at stny.rr.com> wrote: > > >NASA is ready to move forward with the development of the Space > > >Launch System -- an advanced heavy-lift launch vehicle that will > > >provide an entirely new national capability for human exploration > > >beyond Earth's orbit. The Space Launch System will give the nation a > > >safe, affordable and sustainable means of reaching beyond our > > >current limits and opening up new discoveries from the unique > > >vantage point of space. > > > > > >The Space Launch System, or SLS, will be designed to carry the Orion > > >Multi-Purpose Crew Vehicle, as well as important cargo, equipment > > >and science experiments to Earth's orbit and destinations beyond. > > >Additionally, the SLS will serve as a back up for commercial and > > >international partner transportation services to the International > > >Space Station. > > > > > >"This launch system will create good-paying American jobs, ensure > > >continued U.S. leadership in space, and inspire millions around the > > >world," NASA Administrator Charles Bolden said. "President Obama > > >challenged us to be bold and dream big, and that's exactly what we > > >are doing at NASA. While I was proud to fly on the space shuttle, > > >tomorrow's explorers will now dream of one day walking on Mars." > > > > > >The SLS rocket will incorporate technological investments from the > > >Space Shuttle Program and the Constellation Program in order to take > > >advantage of proven hardware and cutting-edge tooling and > > >manufacturing technology that will significantly reduce development > > >and operations costs. It will use a liquid hydrogen and liquid > > >oxygen propulsion system, which will include the RS-25D/E from the > > >Space Shuttle Program for the core stage and the J-2X engine for the > > >upper stage. SLS will also use solid rocket boosters for the initial > > >development flights, while follow-on boosters will be competed based > > >on performance requirements and affordability considerations. The > > >SLS will have an initial lift capacity of 70 metric tons. That's > > >more than 154,000 pounds, or 77 tons, roughly the weight of 40 sport > > >utility vehicles. The lift capacity will be evolvable to 130 metric > > >tons -- more than 286,000 pounds, or 143 tons -- enough to lift 75 > > >SUVs. The first developmental flight, or mission, is targeted for > > >the end of 2017. > > > > > >This specific architecture was selected, largely because it utilizes > > >an evolvable development approach, which allows NASA to address > > >high-cost development activities early on in the program and take > > >advantage of higher buying power before inflation erodes the > > >available funding of a fixed budget. This architecture also enables > > >NASA to leverage existing capabilities and lower development costs > > >by using liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen for both the core and > > >upper stages. Additionally, this architecture provides a modular > > >launch vehicle that can be configured for specific mission needs > > >using a variation of common elements. NASA may not need to lift 130 > > >metric tons for each mission and the flexibility of this modular > > >architecture allows the agency to use different core stage, upper > > >stage, and first-stage booster combinations to achieve the most > > >efficient launch vehicle for the desired mission. > > > > > >"NASA has been making steady progress toward realizing the > > >president's goal of deep space exploration, while doing so in a more > > >affordable way," NASA Deputy Administrator Lori Garver said. "We > > >have been driving down the costs on the Space Launch System and > > >Orion contracts by adopting new ways of doing business and project > > >hundreds of millions of dollars of savings each year." > > > > > >The Space Launch System will be NASA's first exploration-class > > >vehicle since the Saturn V took American astronauts to the moon over > > >40 years ago. With its superior lift capability, the SLS will expand > > >our reach in the solar system and allow us to explore cis-lunar > > >space, near-Earth asteroids, Mars and its moons and beyond. We will > > >learn more about how the solar system formed, where Earth's water > > >and organics originated and how life might be sustained in places > > >far from our Earth's atmosphere and expand the boundaries of human > > >exploration. These discoveries will change the way we understand > > >ourselves, our planet, and its place in the universe. > > > > > >http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/systems/sls/sls1.html > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >FPSPACE mailing list > > >FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > > >http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >FPSPACE mailing list > > >FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > > >http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > -- > NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zur?ck-Garantie! > Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dstdba at post4.tele.dk Sun Sep 18 20:50:04 2011 From: dstdba at post4.tele.dk (Jens Kieffer-Olsen) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 02:50:04 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] ISS time-lapse video Message-ID: <004c01cc7666$13c2d860$3b488920$@tele.dk> Nice job :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74mhQyuyELQ -- Jens Kieffer-Olsen Slagelse, Denmark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chenard at euroconsult-ec.com Sun Sep 18 21:44:58 2011 From: chenard at euroconsult-ec.com (Stephane Chenard) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 10:44:58 +0900 Subject: [FPSPACE] NGIA did in-orbit servicing ?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a bit dated, but intriguing, and no one seems to have really commented on it. On August 8, Space News ran a "Profile" interview with Tom Wilson, general manager of ATK Spacecraft Systems and Services. Excerpt: (Question) Has the U.S. government shown any interest in your satellite life extension service ? (Wilson) (snip) We are in discussions at the policy level for how to actually employ a commercial business model for satellite servicing with a government customer. The National Geospatial Intelligence Agency has successfully done it with electro-optical imagery, but the government hasn't figured out how to do that in other segments. NGIA (or perhaps he meant NRO) successfully serviced an electro-optical satellite in orbit ? And what could that be about ? Surely not Hubble, surely not Orbital Express. Did the Shuttle refuel a KH-11 after all ? From gunter.krebs at skyrocket.de Mon Sep 19 04:50:09 2011 From: gunter.krebs at skyrocket.de (Gunter Krebs) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 10:50:09 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] NGIA did in-orbit servicing ?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2011/9/19 Stephane Chenard > > NGIA (or perhaps he meant NRO) successfully serviced an electro-optical > satellite in orbit ? And what could that be about ? Surely not Hubble, > surely not Orbital Express. Did the Shuttle refuel a KH-11 after all ? > Did the Shuttle refuel a KH-11 after all ? Certainly not. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at satcom.freeserve.co.uk Mon Sep 19 05:02:22 2011 From: john at satcom.freeserve.co.uk (Satcom) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 10:02:22 +0100 Subject: [FPSPACE] NGIA did in-orbit servicing ?? References: Message-ID: <007201cc76aa$d8345d10$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> >The National Geospatial Intelligence Agency has > successfully done it with electro-optical imagery, but the government > hasn't > figured out how to do that in other segments. Its not very clear what that statement is actually infering....but ... DSP and Mitex perhaps as monitored by the satellite community a couple of years ago ? http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0901/14dsp23/ Regards John http://satcom.website.orange.co.uk/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephane Chenard" To: Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 2:44 AM Subject: [FPSPACE] NGIA did in-orbit servicing ?? > > This is a bit dated, but intriguing, and no one seems to have really > commented on it. On August 8, Space News ran a "Profile" interview with > Tom > Wilson, general manager of ATK Spacecraft Systems and Services. Excerpt: > > (Question) Has the U.S. government shown any interest in your satellite > life > extension service ? > > (Wilson) (snip) We are in discussions at the policy level for how to > actually employ a commercial business model for satellite servicing with a > government customer. The National Geospatial Intelligence Agency has > successfully done it with electro-optical imagery, but the government > hasn't > figured out how to do that in other segments. > > NGIA (or perhaps he meant NRO) successfully serviced an electro-optical > satellite in orbit ? And what could that be about ? Surely not Hubble, > surely not Orbital Express. Did the Shuttle refuel a KH-11 after all ? > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > From kgottschalk at uwc.ac.za Mon Sep 19 05:37:12 2011 From: kgottschalk at uwc.ac.za (Keith Gottschalk) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 11:37:12 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] NGIA did in-orbit servicing ?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E772968020000A6000123CC@uwc.ac.za> Isn't this part of the job description of the X-37B? - Keith >>> On 2011/09/19 at 10:50 AM, in message , Gunter Krebs wrote: 2011/9/19 Stephane Chenard NGIA (or perhaps he meant NRO) successfully serviced an electro-optical satellite in orbit ? And what could that be about ? Surely not Hubble, surely not Orbital Express. Did the Shuttle refuel a KH-11 after all ? Did the Shuttle refuel a KH-11 after all ? Certainly not. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- All Email originating from UWC is covered by disclaimer http://www.uwc.ac.za/emaildisclaimer From ljk4 at msn.com Mon Sep 19 09:03:50 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES ) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 13:03:50 +0000 Subject: [FPSPACE] Fwd: the physics arXiv blog Message-ID: ---------- Sent from AT&T Wireless using Windows Live Hotmail -----Original Message----- From: Technology Review Feed - arXiv blog Sent: 9/19/2011 12:30:49 PM To: ljk4 at msn.com Subject: the physics arXiv blog the physics arXiv blog [http://gmodules.com/ig/images/plus_google.gif] ________________________________ GPS Satellites Could Solve Flyby Anomaly Posted: 18 Sep 2011 09:10 PM PDT Spacecraft flying past Earth undergo a puzzling change in speed and nobody knows why. The next generation of navigation satellites could help, say scientists [http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/files/71025/Flyby%20Galileo.png] Now that the Pioneer anomaly has been more or less laid to rest, the outstanding space-based puzzle of the moment is the flyby anomaly. This is how the arXiv Blog described the phenomena back in 2008: "On 8 December 1990, something strange happened to the Galileo spacecraft as it flew past Earth on its way to Jupiter. As the mission team watched, the spacecraft's speed suddenly jumped by 4 mm per second. Nobody took much notice ??? a few mm/s is neither here or there to mission planners. Then on 23 January 1998, the same thing happened to NASA's Near spacecraft as it swung past Earth. This time its speed jumped by 13 mm/s. The following year, Cassini's speed was boosted by 0.11mm/s during its Earth fly-by. And people finally began to ask questions when the Rosetta spacecraft's speed also jumped by 2 mm/s during its 2005 close approach." Nobody knows what causes these strange hiccups in spacecraft speed but there is no shortage of theories, some of which we've discussed here and here. If scientists are ever to get to the root of this phenomenon, they need to have a way of measuring it repeatedly, unambiguously and in detail. But flyby's are few and far between. And even when they do occur, NASA's Deep Space Network which monitors spacecraft from the ground is not designed to study the effect in detail. The most serious problem is that the network cannot follow spacecraft when they are very close to Earth. This results in a gap in communications during a flyby lasting a few hours, just when the most interesting effect is happening. As a result, the fly-by anomaly has never been caught in flagrante. Instead, it arises as the difference between the observed and expected velocity after a flyby. Today, Orfeu Bertolami at the University of Porto in Portugal and a few buddies suggest a way out of this conundrum. They say the next generation of global navigation satellite systems ought to be able to help. These should be capable of detecting the expected change in speed of just a few millimetres per second. These guys calculate that a microsatellite fitted with a device capable of receiving signals from any of the satellite navigation systems would cost less than $15 million. And it might be considerably less if the necessary gear was bolted onto an existing spacecraft intended for a flyby or the kind of highly elliptical orbit likely to demonstrate the anomaly . That's chickenfeed to most space agencies and that means we're likely to see an attempt to measure the phenomenon in the not too distant futur.. The agency most likely to take the bait is the European Space Agency which is about to deploy a GPS rival constellation called Galileo. If it needs a scientific mission to raise the profile of Galileo and show off its potential, it need look no further. Ref: arxiv.org/abs/1109.2779: Probing The Flyby Anomaly With The Galileo Constellation [http://ads.pheedo.com/img.phdo?s=8b06a070b45610a461957ac71f0ea7f5&p=1] [http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/arxivblog/GmoU?d=yIl2AUoC8zA] [http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/arxivblog/GmoU?i=T-cciuL33KE:36wmTQ69Jyk:V_sGLiPBpWU] [http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/arxivblog/GmoU?i=T-cciuL33KE:36wmTQ69Jyk:F7zBnMyn0Lo] [http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/arxivblog/GmoU?i=T-cciuL33KE:36wmTQ69Jyk:gIN9vFwOqvQ] [http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/arxivblog/GmoU?d=l6gmwiTKsz0] [http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/arxivblog/GmoU?d=qj6IDK7rITs] [http://feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/arxivblog/GmoU?d=dnMXMwOfBR0] You are subscribed to email updates from Technology Review Feed - arXiv blog To stop receiving these emails, you may unsubscribe now. Email delivery powered by Google Google Inc., 20 West Kinzie, Chicago IL USA 60610 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jameseoberg at comcast.net Mon Sep 19 12:33:32 2011 From: jameseoberg at comcast.net (James E Oberg) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 11:33:32 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] What does this photo show in Progress debris search article? Message-ID: <5E83BD95F6444A1D861FE9B4BC15D772@ownerfbf08f40c> A curious image was posted with a TASS story today aboutg the Progress crash -- it's got to be 'stock footage' and such file photos are often stuffed into current news stories by Russian news agencies. It shows a nearly-intact upper stage lying in shallow water. 16:31 19/09/2011 // http://www.itar-tass.com/c19/228658.html ???????? ?-12?" ?? ???????? ?? ???????????????? ??????? ??? 271x401, 65kb // ???? www.kp.ru http://www.itar-tass.com/data/Newses/MainPhoto/228658.JPEG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert at collectspace.com Mon Sep 19 13:15:39 2011 From: robert at collectspace.com (Robert Pearlman) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 12:15:39 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] What does this photo show in Progress debris search article? In-Reply-To: <5E83BD95F6444A1D861FE9B4BC15D772@ownerfbf08f40c> References: <5E83BD95F6444A1D861FE9B4BC15D772@ownerfbf08f40c> Message-ID: Jim, The photo is stock; it was similarly generically used in this May 2009 article: http://www.mosnews.com/society/2009/05/08/1550/ ...and was credited to: www.seu.ru ? but the trail grows cold there. -- Robert Pearlman, Editor collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts http://www.collectspace.com/ Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE On Sep 19, 2011, at 11:33 AM, James E Oberg wrote: > > > A curious image was posted with a TASS story today aboutg the Progress crash -- it's got to be 'stock footage' and such file photos are often stuffed into current news stories by Russian news agencies. > > It shows a nearly-intact upper stage lying in shallow water. > > > 16:31 19/09/2011 // http://www.itar-tass.com/c19/228658.html > ???????? ?-12?" ?? ???????? ?? ???????????????? ??????? ??? > > > 271x401, 65kb // ???? www.kp.ru > > > http://www.itar-tass.com/data/Newses/MainPhoto/228658.JPEG > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jameseoberg at comcast.net Mon Sep 19 13:36:00 2011 From: jameseoberg at comcast.net (James E Oberg) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 12:36:00 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] What does this photo show in Progress debris search article? References: <5E83BD95F6444A1D861FE9B4BC15D772@ownerfbf08f40c> Message-ID: <6885B7692B454BB59F1EBA368233E1D3@ownerfbf08f40c> You've solved it! Thanks! It could be a stage dropped over Altay, or from Plesetsk, anywhere in past decades. But NOT associated with the Progress crash. ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Pearlman To: FPSPACE Partners FPSPACE Cc: James E Oberg Sent: Monday, September 19, 2011 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] What does this photo show in Progress debris search article? Jim, The photo is stock; it was similarly generically used in this May 2009 article: http://www.mosnews.com/society/2009/05/08/1550/ ...and was credited to: www.seu.ru ? but the trail grows cold there. -- Robert Pearlman, Editor collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts http://www.collectspace.com/ Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE On Sep 19, 2011, at 11:33 AM, James E Oberg wrote: A curious image was posted with a TASS story today aboutg the Progress crash -- it's got to be 'stock footage' and such file photos are often stuffed into current news stories by Russian news agencies. It shows a nearly-intact upper stage lying in shallow water. 16:31 19/09/2011 // http://www.itar-tass.com/c19/228658.html ???????? ?-12?" ?? ???????? ?? ???????????????? ??????? ??? 271x401, 65kb // ???? www.kp.ru http://www.itar-tass.com/data/Newses/MainPhoto/228658.JPEG _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomsona at flash.net Mon Sep 19 22:18:04 2011 From: thomsona at flash.net (Allen Thomson) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 19:18:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Baykonur question Message-ID: <1316485084.75089.YahooMailClassic@web80202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> What are the 15-meter spherical tanks on either side of 46.014 N, 63.299 E? ??? From cpvick at globalsecurity.org Tue Sep 20 13:20:47 2011 From: cpvick at globalsecurity.org (Charles Vick) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 13:20:47 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] this is now on line Message-ID: <000001cc77b9$a31e0350$e95a09f0$@globalsecurity.org> http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/library/report/2011/saturn-v-sls.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Tue Sep 20 15:42:58 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Current Status of Vyacheslav Filin? Message-ID: <8CE45E4A21D3274-21A0-4E5C7@webmail-m072.sysops.aol.com> FPSpacers, What is the current status of Vyacheslav Filin? I see that he was fired over a Proton related failure in 2010, but RSC Energia still shows him as Vice President and First Deputy General Designer. Thanks in advance, David L. 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URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Wed Sep 21 12:35:40 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 12:35:40 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] =?windows-1252?q?FW=3A_=5BNew_post=5D_Wernher=A0von=A0B?= =?windows-1252?q?raun=A0and=A0Early=A0Concepts=A0for=A0Missions=A0to=A0th?= =?windows-1252?q?e=A0Moon=A0and=A0Mars?= In-Reply-To: <7858997.2343.0@wordpress.com> References: <7858997.2343.0@wordpress.com> Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 12:37:36 +0000 To: ljk4 at msn.com From: no-reply at wordpress.com Subject: [New post] Wernher von Braun and Early Concepts for Missions to the Moon and Mars WordPress.com Wernher von Braun and Early Concepts for Missions to the Moon and Mars launiusr | September 21, 2011 at 12:37 pm | Tags: 1960s, Mars, mining, Moon, Moon race, NASA, U.S. Civil Space, Wernher von Braun | Categories: History, Science | URL: http://wp.me/pwYu1-BN Cover of Collier?s magazine, April 30, 1954. The ultimate objective for the first set of pioneers was a human expedition to Mars, the arrival of which is depicted in this painting by Chesley Bonestell. It helped to energize public excitement for the possibility of a wondrous future in space. In the middle part of the twentieth century, as spaceflight appeared on the verge of reality, several individuals began speculating on how to fly to the Moon and Mars. No one was more eloquent in this effort than German engineer Wernher von Braun, the godfather of the V-2 rocket and a postwar immigrant to theUnited States with a contingent of associates who had built this first ballistic missile in human history. In essence, von Braun envisioned an expedition much like that conducted by Lewis and Clarke on the American frontier. In a 1952 plan, outlined in Collier?s magazine, von Braun described a fifty-person expedition on a six-week reconnaissance of the Moon. Technicians in space suits, von Braun proposed, would assemble three very large spaceships in the vicinity of an orbiting space station. Each spaceship would measure 160 feet in length and, fully fueled, weigh more than 4,000 tons. Two of the ships would carry sufficient fuel to land on the Moon and return to the Earth orbiting station. The third would carry a 75-foot-long cargo container to the lunar landing zone. Once on the lunar surface, astronauts would unload supplies from the cargo container using large construction cranes. The empty cargo container would removed from the landing craft and split in half to create two ready-to-use Quonset huts for the expedition?s base camp. Wernher von Braun in the 1950s. Von Braun proposed that astronauts set up their base camp in a crevice beneath a towering mountain range, so as to protect the expedition from cosmic radiation. To do this, astronauts would need to tow their equipment from the landing site to the base camp using three pressurized tractors. ?The principal aim of our expedition during this first lunar exploration will be strictly scientific,? von Braun and astronomer Fred Whipple promised, by which they meant that military objectives would not dominate the mission. (At the time he outlined his proposal, von Braun designed missiles for the U.S. Army.) Expedition leaders would probe the origins of the Moon, conduct experiments, and search for raw materials. They would dispatch ten persons on a ten-day round trip excursion to Crater Harpalus, 250 miles away, proceeding in a convoy of tractors and trailers. Plans called for the expeditionary corps to remain on the Moon for forty-two days. Artist?s conception of lunar mining, after 2020, artwork by Pat Rawlings. Many believe that the resource rich Moon may one day sustain human efforts to remain in space indefinitely. Eventually, most thinkers on spaceflight believe that the effort must be self-sustaining and mining Helium-3 (He-3) on the Moon has been advanced by many, especially Apollo 17 astronaut Harrison Schmidt, as a commodity that could pay for itself many times over. It is a light, non-radioactive isotope of helium with two protons and one neutron sought after for use in nuclear fusion research. Virtually unknown on Earth, it is thought to be embedded in the upper layer of the lunar regolith by solar wind bombardment over billions of years. Many conceptions of lunar exploitation involve mining this or other rare materials. In 1948, Wernher von Braun also developed specifications for a Mars expedition which he hoped to present in a science fiction novel. The novel was never published in his lifetime, but the technical plans were. In von Braun?s view, the first expedition would travel to Mars in a flotilla consisting of ten spaceships. Once in orbit around Mars, von Braun recommended that the expedition team fly to the surface in three airplane-like spacecraft. The first of the three landing craft would descend to the polar ice cap. Its crew would use skids instead of wheels to stop on the ice, the only surface thought sufficiently smooth for a safe landing. Unloading tractors and supplies, the crew would drive 4,000 miles to the Martian equator, where they would prepare a landing strip for the other two planes. For one of von Braun?s books on the exploration of Mars, Chesley Bonestell painted a famous landscape incorporating the winged space planes and the expeditionary corps surveying a desert-like terrain. Chesley Bonestell's artistic vision of what a Mars landing might look as envisioned in the 1950s. According to von Braun?s plan, the expedition would remain on Mars for 15 months, waiting for the two planets to realign themselves for the return voyage. Removing the wings from their landing craft, ground crews would set the space planes on their tails. The expedition team would gather on board, blast off, rendezvous with the spacecraft in which they had come, and head home. Two conclusions are appropriate. First, those early plans for lunar and Martian missions were ambitious and at some level outrageous. Reflecting on them from the twenty-first century, they seem impossible. Have perspectives really changed to much that these ideas are now impossible when they appeared feasible in an earlier era? Second, I am struck by how the scenarios for missions to the Moon and Mars have evolved over time, but also be the continued desire to undertake them. Add a comment to this post WordPress.com | Thanks for flying with WordPress! Manage Subscriptions | Unsubscribe | Express yourself. Start a blog. Trouble clicking? Copy and paste this URL into your browser: http://subscribe.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomsona at flash.net Wed Sep 21 13:13:21 2011 From: thomsona at flash.net (Allen Thomson) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] =?iso-8859-1?q?FW=3A_=5BNew_post=5D_Wernher=A0von=A0Bra?= =?iso-8859-1?q?un=A0and=A0Early=A0Concepts=A0for=A0Missions=A0to=A0the=A0?= =?iso-8859-1?q?Moon=A0and=A0Mars?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1316625201.19185.YahooMailClassic@web80203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I greatly admire von Braun's vision. But there ought to be some form of Godwin's Law about Helium-3.? Today and for the foreseeable future it's purest snake oil when arguing for lunar activities. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Wed Sep 21 22:37:58 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 22:37:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Kennedy - Khrushchev Lunar Initiative Message-ID: <8CE46E7C6405B46-A64-639B4@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com> Hello FPSpacers, Some possible new revelation regarding the Kennedy - Khrushchev Lunar Initiative: http://www.terradaily.com/news/russia-97h.html Had this actually taken place (which is a BIG "if"), I wonder if we would have made it to the Moon sooner ... or later. Best regards, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Thu Sep 22 06:39:41 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 06:39:41 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] FW: UAZ: Regents' Professor Michael J. Drake, 1946-2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 22:56:01 -0600 Subject: UAZ: Regents' Professor Michael J. Drake, 1946-2011 From: inge.heyer at aas.org To: Inge.Heyer at aas.org THE FOLLOWING RELEASE WAS RECEIVED FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF ARIZONA IN TUCSON AND IS FORWARDED FOR YOUR INFORMATION. (FORWARDING DOES NOT IMPLY ENDORSEMENT BY THE AMERICAN ASTRONOMICAL SOCIETY.) Inge Heyer, AAS Deputy Press Officer: inge.heyer at aas.org, +1 808-936-4136. 21 September 2011 Daniel Stolte +1 520-626-4402 stolte at email.arizona.edu REGENTS' PROFESSOR MICHAEL J. DRAKE, 1946-2011 Under Drake's leadership, the UA's Lunar and Planetary Laboratory grew from a small group of geologists and astronomers into an international powerhouse of research into the solar system. Michael J. Drake, Regents' Professor, director of the University of Arizona Lunar and Planetary Laboratory and head of the department of planetary sciences, died Wednesday at The University of Arizona Medical Center-University Campus in Tucson, Ariz. He was 65. Drake, who joined the UA planetary sciences faculty in 1973 and headed LPL and the planetary sciences department since 1994, was the principal investigator of the most ambitious UA project to date, OSIRIS-REx, an $800 million mission designed to retrieve a sample of an asteroid and return it to Earth. OSIRIS-REx is due to launch in 2016. It is the largest grant or contract the UA has ever received. Drake played a key role in a succession of ever more high-profile space projects that garnered international attention for LPL and the University. Those include the Cassini mission to explore Saturn, the Gamma-Ray Spectrometer onboard NASA's Mars Odyssey Orbiter, the HiRISE camera onboard NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter and the Phoenix Mars Lander. Drake also was a Fellow of the American Geophysical Union, the Geochemical Society and the Meteoritical Society, and he was president of the latter two. A native of Bristol, England, Drake graduated with a degree in geology from Victoria University in Manchester, and then he left for a doctoral program in geology from the University of Oregon, graduating in 1972. After a postdoctoral program at the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, Drake moved to, and immediately fell in love with, Arizona. As a young assistant professor, Drake joined a much smaller LPL in 1973. The lab occupied only a part of what is now the Kuiper Space Sciences Building, and most of his colleagues came from astronomy. Planetary sciences did not have the cachet then that it does now. "It was, from my point of view, a strange environment," Drake wrote earlier on LPL's website. "It's like the Tower of Babel; you talk in your own language and your own jargon, and communicating across fields is surprisingly difficult. It took a few years before I think most of us began to understand what motivated the other ones, what we were really saying. I think it helped us to speak in clearer, plain English and minimize the jargon, because we came from such different backgrounds." Regents' Professor Peter Strittmatter, who recently retired as director of the UA's Steward Observatory and head of the UA astronomy department, said Drake used those communication skills to expand LPL and form close relationships with NASA. "Mike thought and spoke clearly so you always knew where he stood on an issue," Strittmatter said. "He was a superb director of LPL, a great leader and a great personal friend. He will be sorely missed by all of us at the University of Arizona and especially those involved in the space sciences." Peter Smith, the principal investigator for the Phoenix Mars Lander mission, said he began working with Drake when Smith was building the camera for the 1997 Mars Pathfinder. He called Drake's handling of the complexities of proposal development "masterful." "We would meet monthly to review progress and plan strategy," Smith said. "Mike always encouraged excellence and made sure that the University was providing full support to our programs. Over the years, as my career progressed through various missions to Mars, he was there when troubles surfaced and a political push was needed," said Smith, who is also part of the OSIRIS-REx mission. "He watched our flight projects from the sidelines; his enthusiasm made it clear that he wished for a more direct involvement. After winning the project of his dreams, Mike will continue to inspire and lead through the legacy of his accomplishments." Edgar J. McCullough, retired professor and head of the UA geosciences department and dean of the College of Science, said he and Drake became friends in the early 1970s when they would go on weeklong backpacking excursions around the West. "When he was in planetary sciences and I was head of the geosciences department, we set up a microprobe laboratory with funding from both departments. It was the first big piece of diagnostic equipment here at a time when geoscience was becoming more of an analytical science," McCullough said. "He was the kind of faculty member you wanted because he was also strong on teaching, especially undergraduates." McCullough said Drake helped develop promotion and tenure policies for the college and was instrumental in establishing a joint position between the colleges of science and education to create science education programs. Drake also led a major undergraduate teaching effort in planetary sciences, even though the department was created as a graduate program. Joaquin Ruiz, executive dean of the Colleges of Letters, Arts and Science, said: "Mike was a distinguished scholar, an accomplished administrator and a good friend. His students loved him for his energy, smarts and care. He was able to run the department of planetary sciences incredibly smoothly at the same time as he was writing significant papers about the early evolution of the Earth and solar system and still have time to successfully compete for OSIRIS-REx." Timothy Swindle, the assistant director at LPL, summed it up, saying, "Not only was he a world-class scientist, but he was a tireless advocate for the Lunar and Planetary Laboratory and all the people who have worked here. Personally, he was a friend and mentor for me, and for many others, and we will miss him deeply." ##### This story and photos are online at: http://www.uanews.org/node/42011 . The University of Arizona Lunar and Planetary Laboratory: http://www.lpl.arizona.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------ If you do not wish to receive press releases that are forwarded to the news media by the American Astronomical Society, please unsubscribe by replying accordingly to any incoming press release, or send e-mail to inge.heyer at aas.org. Requests for referrals to experts on astronomy and space science should be sent to the same address. Inge Heyer, AAS Deputy Press Officer, +1 808-936-4136. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From geertsassen at gmail.com Thu Sep 22 07:52:09 2011 From: geertsassen at gmail.com (Geert Sassen) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 13:52:09 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Kennedy - Khrushchev Lunar Initiative In-Reply-To: <8CE46E7C6405B46-A64-639B4@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE46E7C6405B46-A64-639B4@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: It's certainly a very interesting article, David, but I don't think it would have worked, and IF it did, I don't think it would have taken us to the moon.. In the first place, any such cooperation would have involved exchanging information on their rocket-programs, which would have been unacceptable to the military on both sides. That alone would almost certainly have been the end of any such attempts, but apart from that, the industry wouldn't have been happy with it either, it could cause them to loose jobs, contracts, and money.. However, supposing they somehow managed to overcome all these huge obstacles, then what could they have done, what would such a project have looked like? Certainly not a Apollo-type mission, any single-launch scenario would be out of the question, as it would be either an 'American' or a 'Soviet' rocket and no-one would accept that. So, you would almost certainly end up with at least a dual launch scenario and then probably an earth-orbit rendez-vous, an US-lander with a Soviet mothership or vice versa. Either that, or you would get some dual Apollo-style mission with a lunar surface rendez-vous (but then, who would be landing first? And most of all, it would only increase costs...). Whatever scenario would be selected, it would be more complicated than Apollo/N1L3, and it would take more time and costs would rise and rise.. With hardly any 'propaganda' value and rapidly rising costs, almost certainly sooner or later one or both partners would pull the plug out of the whole thing.. It might have resulted in some US-SU spacestation in LEO (as a 'stepping stone' to the moon) but I guess nobody would ever have reached the moon, and probably by now we would be in exactly the same situation as we are now however without the memory of Apollo.. Regards, Geert. On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 4:37 AM, wrote: > Hello FPSpacers, > Some possible new revelation regarding the Kennedy - Khrushchev Lunar > Initiative: > http://www.terradaily.com/news/russia-97h.html > Had this actually taken place (which is a BIG "if"), I wonder if we would > have made it to the Moon sooner ... or later. > Best regards, > David L. Rickman > > > > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > -- Geert Sassen http://www.facebook.com/geert.sassen From davidlrickman at aol.com Thu Sep 22 19:26:17 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 19:26:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Tiangong Animation Message-ID: <8CE479629854307-A64-700AD@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com> ?? FPSpacers? There is well done series of three animations of the Tiangong from launch to integration as a station: http://news.sina.com.cn/z/tiangong2011/3D/index.shtml It is interesting that the Tiangong is launched with the wide-end at the top. ??, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cpvick at globalsecurity.org Thu Sep 22 21:44:40 2011 From: cpvick at globalsecurity.org (Charles Vick) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 21:44:40 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Kennedy - Khrushchev Lunar Initiative In-Reply-To: <8CE46E7C6405B46-A64-639B4@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE46E7C6405B46-A64-639B4@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <001601cc7992$5c6b1710$15414530$@globalsecurity.org> I know Dr. Arnold Frutkin with have something very different to say about this that would be at variance to this based on the interview I had with him years ago on this and much more From: fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org [mailto:fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org] On Behalf Of davidlrickman at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 10:38 PM To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: [FPSPACE] Kennedy - Khrushchev Lunar Initiative Hello FPSpacers, Some possible new revelation regarding the Kennedy - Khrushchev Lunar Initiative: http://www.terradaily.com/news/russia-97h.html Had this actually taken place (which is a BIG "if"), I wonder if we would have made it to the Moon sooner ... or later. Best regards, David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Nels.Anderson at gmx.net Fri Sep 23 01:35:42 2011 From: Nels.Anderson at gmx.net (Nels Anderson) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 07:35:42 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] China Space Museum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110923053542.35050@gmx.net> Has anyone managed a visit to the museum attached to the Chinese Academy for Launch Vehicle Technology in the Fengtai district of south Beijing? I've heard it's possible for non-Chinese citizens to visit with advanced approval. On a past trip to Beijing, I showed up at the gate and tried, without any luck, to talk my way in. -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de From svengrahn at bahnhof.se Fri Sep 23 02:05:26 2011 From: svengrahn at bahnhof.se (Sven Grahn) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:05:26 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] China Space Museum In-Reply-To: <20110923053542.35050@gmx.net> References: <20110923053542.35050@gmx.net> Message-ID: <86210975-F0FC-4FD3-BDC3-5B5219F70881@bahnhof.se> I was there in 2008. I have some pix. Will try to put on my web site Sven Skickat fr?n min iPhone Sven Grahn R?ttviksv?gen 44 192 71 Sollentuna Sweden Mobile: +46 70 3443844 svengrahn at Bahnhof.se www.svengrahn.pp.se Skype sven.grahn1 23 sep 2011 kl. 07:35 skrev "Nels Anderson" : > Has anyone managed a visit to the museum attached to the Chinese Academy for Launch Vehicle Technology in the Fengtai district of south Beijing? > > I've heard it's possible for non-Chinese citizens to visit with advanced approval. On a past trip to Beijing, I showed up at the gate and tried, without any luck, to talk my way in. > -- > Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir > belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace From cdomashnev at acm.org Fri Sep 23 04:22:10 2011 From: cdomashnev at acm.org (Constantine Domashnev) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 04:22:10 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Kennedy - Khrushchev Lunar Initiative Message-ID: <63A0AE7967A7410CB5D6A79671B091F5@Tosha> http://www.terradaily.com/news/russia-97h.html : [Sergei Khrushchev to SpaceCast] "While the Premiere had agreed with Russian military leaders that said any joint Moon flight would provide an opportunity for the U.S. military to learn more about Russian rocket and missile programs, he now thought that it might be possible to learn more from the technology of the Americans." The Dr. Logsdon?s version ("John F. Kennedy and the Race to the Moon", page 192) of the/a Sergey's explanation for the possible shift in Nikita Khrushchev's thinking: ?in 1963 [in contrast to 1961], "we had a sufficient number of the R-16 missile, and from the combined work the Americans could learn about our strength and not our weakness."? KD From Nels.Anderson at gmx.net Fri Sep 23 05:44:57 2011 From: Nels.Anderson at gmx.net (Nels Anderson) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 11:44:57 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] China Space Museum In-Reply-To: <86210975-F0FC-4FD3-BDC3-5B5219F70881@bahnhof.se> References: <20110923053542.35050@gmx.net> <86210975-F0FC-4FD3-BDC3-5B5219F70881@bahnhof.se> Message-ID: <20110923094457.326400@gmx.net> Great! I look forward to the pictures. How did you get into the museum? -------- Original-Nachricht -------- > Datum: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:05:26 +0200 > Von: Sven Grahn > An: Nels Anderson > CC: "fpspace at www.friends-partners.org" > Betreff: Re: [FPSPACE] China Space Museum > I was there in 2008. I have some pix. Will try to put on my web site > > Sven > > Skickat fr?n min iPhone > > Sven Grahn > R?ttviksv?gen 44 > 192 71 Sollentuna > Sweden > Mobile: +46 70 3443844 > svengrahn at Bahnhof.se > www.svengrahn.pp.se > Skype sven.grahn1 > > > 23 sep 2011 kl. 07:35 skrev "Nels Anderson" : > > > Has anyone managed a visit to the museum attached to the Chinese Academy > for Launch Vehicle Technology in the Fengtai district of south Beijing? > > > > I've heard it's possible for non-Chinese citizens to visit with advanced > approval. On a past trip to Beijing, I showed up at the gate and tried, > without any luck, to talk my way in. > > -- > > Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir > > belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de > > _______________________________________________ > > FPSPACE mailing list > > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de From svengrahn at bahnhof.se Fri Sep 23 11:37:12 2011 From: svengrahn at bahnhof.se (Sven Grahn) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 17:37:12 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] China Space Museum In-Reply-To: <20110923094457.326400@gmx.net> References: <20110923053542.35050@gmx.net> <86210975-F0FC-4FD3-BDC3-5B5219F70881@bahnhof.se> <20110923094457.326400@gmx.net> Message-ID: I was in a Swedish delegation visiting CAST, CLTC and CALT. We also got to see the CZ-2F being checked out before transport to the launch site. Sven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nels Anderson" To: "Sven Grahn" Cc: Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] China Space Museum > Great! I look forward to the pictures. > > How did you get into the museum? > > -------- Original-Nachricht -------- >> Datum: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 08:05:26 +0200 >> Von: Sven Grahn >> An: Nels Anderson >> CC: "fpspace at www.friends-partners.org" >> Betreff: Re: [FPSPACE] China Space Museum > >> I was there in 2008. I have some pix. Will try to put on my web site >> >> Sven >> >> Skickat fr?n min iPhone >> >> Sven Grahn >> R?ttviksv?gen 44 >> 192 71 Sollentuna >> Sweden >> Mobile: +46 70 3443844 >> svengrahn at Bahnhof.se >> www.svengrahn.pp.se >> Skype sven.grahn1 >> >> >> 23 sep 2011 kl. 07:35 skrev "Nels Anderson" : >> >> > Has anyone managed a visit to the museum attached to the Chinese >> > Academy >> for Launch Vehicle Technology in the Fengtai district of south Beijing? >> > >> > I've heard it's possible for non-Chinese citizens to visit with >> > advanced >> approval. On a past trip to Beijing, I showed up at the gate and tried, >> without any luck, to talk my way in. >> > -- >> > Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir >> > belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de >> > _______________________________________________ >> > FPSPACE mailing list >> > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >> > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > -- > Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir > belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de > From davidlrickman at aol.com Fri Sep 23 14:42:59 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 14:42:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] "Allen Thompson's Law" of Helium-3 In-Reply-To: <1316625201.19185.YahooMailClassic@web80203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1316625201.19185.YahooMailClassic@web80203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CE4837C03EC448-A64-7C0AD@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com> Simple: "Allen Thompson's Law", which states: "Helium-3 has been so ingrained into lunar and planetary science fiction literature, theater, and even gaming that it is inevitable that any discussion of the need for planetary and/or lunar exploration will lead to the mention of Helium-3 in a relatively short time." Best, David L. rickman -----Original Message----- From: Allen Thomson I greatly admire von Braun's vision. But there ought to be some form of Godwin's Law about Helium-3. Today and for the foreseeable future it's purest snake oil when arguing for lunar activities. _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From morrisjones at hotmail.com Fri Sep 23 18:02:29 2011 From: morrisjones at hotmail.com (Morris Jones) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 22:02:29 +0000 Subject: [FPSPACE] Japanese movie about Hayabusa mission Message-ID: http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/ff20110923r1.html I haven't seen it, and wonder if it will be released outside Japan. It's nice to see such a movie produced for a mass market. Spaceflight needs all the publicity it can get right now. As an Australian, I'm also fond of this mission. The re-entry capsule became the first spacecraft in history to make a controlled landing in Australia. Morris Jones Sydney -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Fri Sep 23 23:52:43 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 23:52:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Tu-16 Lunar Block E Weightlessness Test? Message-ID: <8CE48848C1059CD-A70-810B6@webmail-d029.sysops.aol.com> Hello FPSpacers, Another toughie here: According to KB Yuzhnoye, testing of the Lunniy Korabl Block E included simulated conditions of weightlessness via a Tu-16. Does anybody have a clue as to what variation of a Tu-16 would be used for this type of test? Many Thanks in Advance! David L. Rickman -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at satcom.freeserve.co.uk Sat Sep 24 01:40:35 2011 From: john at satcom.freeserve.co.uk (Satcom) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 06:40:35 +0100 Subject: [FPSPACE] UARS down Message-ID: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> Or at least thats what NASA are reporting according to UK news services , although the promised two hours detailed notice never seemed to appear. So , where did it fall. Odds are in the Pacific to the SW of Hawaii , but NASA are still waiting for reports. John From bharwood at earthlink.net Sat Sep 24 01:48:15 2011 From: bharwood at earthlink.net (William Harwood) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 01:48:15 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] UARS down In-Reply-To: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> References: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> Message-ID: <8D1CD132-B2C3-4776-8181-87DA04B10661@earthlink.net> John: NASA is not reporting anything yet, other than they are "working to confirm the re-entry location and time and will provide an update shortly." That was posted at 4:55 GMT. Their update, whenever it shows up, will be posted here: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/uars/index.html Regards, Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Harwood CBS News Space Analyst Kennedy Space Center, FL 321-639-9440 - KSC harwoodb at cbsnews.com http://www.cbsnews.com/network/news/space/home/index.html http://news.cnet.com/space-shot/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sep 24, 2011, at 1:40 AM, Satcom wrote: > Or at least thats what NASA are reporting according to UK news services , although the promised two hours detailed notice never seemed to appear. > > So , where did it fall. > > Odds are in the Pacific to the SW of Hawaii , but NASA are still waiting for reports. > > John > > > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at satcom.freeserve.co.uk Sat Sep 24 01:51:46 2011 From: john at satcom.freeserve.co.uk (Satcom) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 06:51:46 +0100 Subject: [FPSPACE] UARS down References: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <8D1CD132-B2C3-4776-8181-87DA04B10661@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001101cc7a7e$0b945440$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> Thanks Bill , ...yes saw that report. The lack of any hard detail suggests that the re-entry point was rather remote ! .......So no bits on Ebay then :O) John ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Harwood" To: "Satcom" Cc: ; Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2011 6:48 AM Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] UARS down John: NASA is not reporting anything yet, other than they are "working to confirm the re-entry location and time and will provide an update shortly." That was posted at 4:55 GMT. Their update, whenever it shows up, will be posted here: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/uars/index.html Regards, Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Harwood CBS News Space Analyst Kennedy Space Center, FL 321-639-9440 - KSC harwoodb at cbsnews.com http://www.cbsnews.com/network/news/space/home/index.html http://news.cnet.com/space-shot/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sep 24, 2011, at 1:40 AM, Satcom wrote: > Or at least thats what NASA are reporting according to UK news services , > although the promised two hours detailed notice never seemed to appear. > > So , where did it fall. > > Odds are in the Pacific to the SW of Hawaii , but NASA are still waiting > for reports. > > John > > > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace From robert at collectspace.com Sat Sep 24 01:57:05 2011 From: robert at collectspace.com (Robert Pearlman) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 00:57:05 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] UARS down In-Reply-To: <001101cc7a7e$0b945440$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> References: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <8D1CD132-B2C3-4776-8181-87DA04B10661@earthlink.net> <001101cc7a7e$0b945440$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> Message-ID: <3A26AD6D-3FED-47DE-AE72-99F6B535A61D@collectspace.com> NASA says "If debris fell on land (and that's still a BIG if), Canada is most likely area." -- Robert Pearlman, Editor collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts http://www.collectspace.com/ Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE On Sep 24, 2011, at 12:51 AM, Satcom wrote: > Thanks Bill , ...yes saw that report. > The lack of any hard detail suggests that the re-entry point was rather remote ! > .......So no bits on Ebay then :O) > > > John > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Harwood" > To: "Satcom" > Cc: ; > Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2011 6:48 AM > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] UARS down > > > John: > > NASA is not reporting anything yet, other than they are "working to confirm the re-entry location and time and will provide an update shortly." That was posted at 4:55 GMT. Their update, whenever it shows up, will be posted here: > > http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/uars/index.html > > Regards, > > Bill > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > William Harwood > CBS News Space Analyst > Kennedy Space Center, FL > > 321-639-9440 - KSC > harwoodb at cbsnews.com > http://www.cbsnews.com/network/news/space/home/index.html > http://news.cnet.com/space-shot/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > On Sep 24, 2011, at 1:40 AM, Satcom wrote: > >> Or at least thats what NASA are reporting according to UK news services , although the promised two hours detailed notice never seemed to appear. >> >> So , where did it fall. >> >> Odds are in the Pacific to the SW of Hawaii , but NASA are still waiting for reports. >> >> John >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> FPSPACE mailing list >> FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org >> http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > > > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at satcom.freeserve.co.uk Sat Sep 24 03:25:30 2011 From: john at satcom.freeserve.co.uk (Satcom) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 08:25:30 +0100 Subject: [FPSPACE] NASA Updates UARS deatils Message-ID: <005c01cc7a8b$23c5a520$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/uars/index.html NASA's decommissioned Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite fell back to Earth between 11:23 p.m. EDT Friday, Sept. 23 and 1:09 a.m. EDT Sept. 24. The satellite was passing eastward over Canada and Africa as well as vast portions of the Pacific, Atlantic and Indian oceans during that period. The precise re-entry time and location are not yet known with certainty. John From john at satcom.freeserve.co.uk Sat Sep 24 05:13:19 2011 From: john at satcom.freeserve.co.uk (Satcom) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 10:13:19 +0100 Subject: [FPSPACE] Slight refinement on UARS re entry Message-ID: <009301cc7a9a$33ac8bc0$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/uars/index.html NASA's decommissioned Upper Atmosphere Research Satellite fell back to Earth between 11:23 p.m. EDT Friday, Sept. 23 and 1:09 a.m. EDT Sept. 24. The Joint Space Operations Center at Vandenberg Air Force Base in California said the satellite penetrated the atmosphere over the Pacific Ocean. The precise re-entry time and location are not yet known with certainty. John From ljk4 at msn.com Sat Sep 24 17:15:52 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 17:15:52 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] =?windows-1252?q?FW=3A_News_Alert=3A_Dmitry_Medvedev_as?= =?windows-1252?q?ks_Vladi=ADmir_Putin_to_run_for_president_of_Russia?= In-Reply-To: <23298-76-PSLW3N-QEMM0-RN8MLH-B52L88-ZS4PNQ-H-M2-20110924-18a4a1f17d077788@e-dialog.com> References: <23298-76-PSLW3N-QEMM0-RN8MLH-B52L88-ZS4PNQ-H-M2-20110924-18a4a1f17d077788@e-dialog.com> Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 09:12:04 -0400 From: newsletters at email.washingtonpost.com To: ljk4 at msn.com Subject: News Alert: Dmitry Medvedev asks Vladi?mir Putin to run for president of Russia ---------------------------------------- News Alert: Dmitry Medvedev asks Vladi?mir Putin to run for president of Russia September 24, 2011 9:10:37 AM ---------------------------------------- Russian President Dmitry A. Medvedev said Saturday he will step aside after one term as president, and called on the ruling United Russia party to endorse Vladimir V. Putin for the post. That makes it almost certain that Putin will return to the presidency, because United Russia, which he built, has a stranglehold on the country?s politics. http://link.email.washingtonpost.com/r/PSLW3N/RN8MLH/B52L88/ZS4PNQ/4HFDQ/36/h For more information, visit washingtonpost.com ****************************** Advertisement: Get The Washington Post app for iPad, iPhone or iPod Touch: http://itunes.com/apps/thewashingtonpost ****************************** Get breaking news alerts sent to your mobile phone. Text ALERTS to 98999. To unsubscribe, click here ---------------------------------------- ? 2011The Washington Post Company Washington Post Digital E-mail Customer Care 1150 15th Street NW Washington, DC 20071 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert_law at yahoo.com Sat Sep 24 17:42:20 2011 From: robert_law at yahoo.com (Robert Law) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 14:42:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] =?utf-8?q?FW=3A_News_Alert=3A_Dmitry_Medvedev_asks_Vlad?= =?utf-8?q?i=C2=ADmir_Putin_to_run_for_president_of_Russia?= In-Reply-To: References: <23298-76-PSLW3N-QEMM0-RN8MLH-B52L88-ZS4PNQ-H-M2-20110924-18a4a1f17d077788@e-dialog.com> Message-ID: <1316900540.51660.YahooMailNeo@web31703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Is this good or bad ?for the space program? Robert ________________________________ From: LARRY KLAES To: fpspace Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2011 10:15 PM Subject: [FPSPACE] FW: News Alert: Dmitry Medvedev asks Vladi?mir Putin to run for president of Russia ? ________________________________ Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 09:12:04 -0400 From: newsletters at email.washingtonpost.com To: ljk4 at msn.com Subject: News Alert: Dmitry Medvedev asks Vladi?mir Putin to run for president of Russia ---------------------------------------- News Alert: Dmitry Medvedev asks Vladi?mir Putin to run for president of Russia September 24, 2011 9:10:37 AM ---------------------------------------- Russian President Dmitry A. Medvedev said Saturday he will step aside after one term as president, and called on the ruling United Russia party to endorse Vladimir V. Putin for the post. That makes it almost certain that Putin will return to the presidency, because United Russia, which he built, has a stranglehold on the country?s politics. http://link.email.washingtonpost.com/r/PSLW3N/RN8MLH/B52L88/ZS4PNQ/4HFDQ/36/h For more information, visit washingtonpost.com ****************************** Advertisement: Get The Washington Post app for iPad, iPhone or iPod Touch: http://itunes.com/apps/thewashingtonpost ****************************** Get breaking news alerts sent to your mobile phone. Text ALERTS to 98999. To unsubscribe, click here ---------------------------------------- ? 2011The Washington Post Company Washington Post Digital E-mail Customer Care 1150 15th Street NW Washington, DC 20071 _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Sat Sep 24 17:46:18 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 17:46:18 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] =?windows-1252?q?FW=3A_News_Alert=3A_Dmitry_Medvedev_as?= =?windows-1252?q?ks_Vladi=ADmir_Putin_to_run_for_president_of_Russia?= In-Reply-To: <1316900540.51660.YahooMailNeo@web31703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <23298-76-PSLW3N-QEMM0-RN8MLH-B52L88-ZS4PNQ-H-M2-20110924-18a4a1f17d077788@e-dialog.com> , <1316900540.51660.YahooMailNeo@web31703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That is what I want to know. Putin seemed like he wanted to get competitive with the US as in days of yore. If so, how will this affect our access to the ISS? Larry Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 14:42:20 -0700 From: robert_law at yahoo.com Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] FW: News Alert: Dmitry Medvedev asks Vladi?mir Putin to run for president of Russia To: ljk4 at msn.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org Is this good or bad for the space program? Robert From: LARRY KLAES To: fpspace Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2011 10:15 PM Subject: [FPSPACE] FW: News Alert: Dmitry Medvedev asks Vladi?mir Putin to run for president of Russia Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 09:12:04 -0400 From: newsletters at email.washingtonpost.com To: ljk4 at msn.com Subject: News Alert: Dmitry Medvedev asks Vladi?mir Putin to run for president of Russia ---------------------------------------- News Alert: Dmitry Medvedev asks Vladi?mir Putin to run for president of Russia September 24, 2011 9:10:37 AM ---------------------------------------- Russian President Dmitry A. Medvedev said Saturday he will step aside after one term as president, and called on the ruling United Russia party to endorse Vladimir V. Putin for the post. That makes it almost certain that Putin will return to the presidency, because United Russia, which he built, has a stranglehold on the country?s politics. http://link.email.washingtonpost.com/r/PSLW3N/RN8MLH/B52L88/ZS4PNQ/4HFDQ/36/h For more information, visit washingtonpost.com ****************************** Advertisement: Get The Washington Post app for iPad, iPhone or iPod Touch: http://itunes.com/apps/thewashingtonpost ****************************** Get breaking news alerts sent to your mobile phone. Text ALERTS to 98999. To unsubscribe, click here ---------------------------------------- ? 2011The Washington Post Company Washington Post Digital E-mail Customer Care 1150 15th Street NW Washington, DC 20071 _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Sat Sep 24 17:55:21 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 17:55:21 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Russia to build the Trans Bering Straight Railway by 2045 Message-ID: This Ain?t Your Ancestors? Ice Bridge ? Russia To Build Tunnel Across Bering Straitby Peter Murray September 15th, 2011 At 64 miles (103 km), it would not only be the longest tunnel in the world, it would more than double the currently longest British Channel Tunnel. It would span the Bering Straight and connect Russia to Alaska. Details are sketchy, but consensus indicates the tunnel would have a highway, high-speed rail tracks, a fiber optic network and pipelines for gas and oil. The total cost for the tunnel is projected at $65 billion USD. Full article here: http://singularityhub.com/2011/09/15/this-aint-your-ancestors-ice-bridge-%E2%80%93-russia-to-build-tunnel-across-bering-strait/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From agzak at optonline.net Sat Sep 24 18:37:13 2011 From: agzak at optonline.net (Anatoly Zak) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 18:37:13 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Russia to build the Trans Bering Straight Railway by 2045 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/24/11 5:55 PM, "LARRY KLAES" wrote: > the tunnel would have a highway > ...now Sarah Palin would be able to say that she not only can see Russia, but also drive there for a weekend! :) Anatoly Zak http://www.RussianSpaceWeb.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bhen at telenet.be Sat Sep 24 19:14:25 2011 From: bhen at telenet.be (Bart Hendrickx) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 01:14:25 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] UARS down In-Reply-To: <3A26AD6D-3FED-47DE-AE72-99F6B535A61D@collectspace.com> References: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <8D1CD132-B2C3-4776-8181-87DA04B10661@earthlink.net> <001101cc7a7e$0b945440$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <3A26AD6D-3FED-47DE-AE72-99F6B535A61D@collectspace.com> Message-ID: <001e01cc7b0f$b390d100$1ab27300$@be> Just to put things into perspective : some objects much heavier than UARS have made uncontrolled re-entries that completely escaped the media's attention. A few that come to mind : - Salyut-2 (20 tons) : out-of-control military Almaz space station (1972) - Kosmos-557 (20 tons) : out-of-control civilian DOS space station (1973) - Kvant space tug (10 tons) : was supposed to be de-orbited after delivering the Kvant module to Mir in 1987, but due to the need to perform a repeated docking attempt not enough propellant remained on board for a de-orbit burn. Instead, the tug was placed in a storage orbit higher than Mir and decayed naturally, re-entering in August 1988. - Kosmos-1767, 1820, 1871, 1873 (10-12 tons?) : four dummy satellites (code-named EPN 03.0695) launched by the Zenit rocket in 1986-1987 to simulate the rocket's maximum payload mass to low orbit Bart Hendrickx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomsona at flash.net Sat Sep 24 19:49:47 2011 From: thomsona at flash.net (Allen Thomson) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 16:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Russia to build the Trans Bering Straight Railway by 2045 Message-ID: <1316908187.42992.YahooMailClassic@web80207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > The total cost for the tunnel is projected at $65 billion USD. ? Sorta like the Space Launch System total cost, to bring this back to space. Both look pretty dubious in terms of utility, but who can say? From ljk4 at msn.com Sat Sep 24 20:00:24 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 20:00:24 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] UARS down In-Reply-To: <001e01cc7b0f$b390d100$1ab27300$@be> References: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER>, <8D1CD132-B2C3-4776-8181-87DA04B10661@earthlink.net>, <001101cc7a7e$0b945440$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER>, <3A26AD6D-3FED-47DE-AE72-99F6B535A61D@collectspace.com>, <001e01cc7b0f$b390d100$1ab27300$@be> Message-ID: And how many Soviet nuclear-powered spysats are waiting to come down next? That will make the news. Larry From: bhen at telenet.be To: FPSPACE at friends-partners.org Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 01:14:25 +0200 Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] UARS down Just to put things into perspective : some objects much heavier than UARS have made uncontrolled re-entries that completely escaped the media?s attention. A few that come to mind : - Salyut-2 (20 tons) : out-of-control military Almaz space station (1972)- Kosmos-557 (20 tons) : out-of-control civilian DOS space station (1973)- Kvant space tug (10 tons) : was supposed to be de-orbited after delivering the Kvant module to Mir in 1987, but due to the need to perform a repeated docking attempt not enough propellant remained on board for a de-orbit burn. Instead, the tug was placed in a storage orbit higher than Mir and decayed naturally, re-entering in August 1988.- Kosmos-1767, 1820, 1871, 1873 (10-12 tons?) : four dummy satellites (code-named EPN 03.0695) launched by the Zenit rocket in 1986-1987 to simulate the rocket?s maximum payload mass to low orbit Bart Hendrickx _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbcharle at gmail.com Sat Sep 24 21:09:22 2011 From: jbcharle at gmail.com (John) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 20:09:22 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] UARS down In-Reply-To: <001e01cc7b0f$b390d100$1ab27300$@be> References: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <8D1CD132-B2C3-4776-8181-87DA04B10661@earthlink.net> <001101cc7a7e$0b945440$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <3A26AD6D-3FED-47DE-AE72-99F6B535A61D@collectspace.com> <001e01cc7b0f$b390d100$1ab27300$@be> Message-ID: <370BCC32-89B0-4FB4-A95D-AA03CC2D70F3@gmail.com> Bart, thanks for the perspective. Re: the 1987 Kvant space tug. Why couldn't the delta v used to boost it into a storage orbit instead be used to deorbit it? Not to mention the apparent decision simply to delay a decision (as if the storage orbit was forever)? John Charles Houston, Texas On Sep 24, 2011, at 18:14, "Bart Hendrickx" wrote: > Just to put things into perspective : some objects much heavier than UARS have made uncontrolled re-entries that completely escaped the media?s attention. A few that come to mind : > > > > - Salyut-2 (20 tons) : out-of-control military Almaz space station (1972) > > - Kosmos-557 (20 tons) : out-of-control civilian DOS space station (1973) > > - Kvant space tug (10 tons) : was supposed to be de-orbited after delivering the Kvant module to Mir in 1987, but due to the need to perform a repeated docking attempt not enough propellant remained on board for a de-orbit burn. Instead, the tug was placed in a storage orbit higher than Mir and decayed naturally, re-entering in August 1988. > > - Kosmos-1767, 1820, 1871, 1873 (10-12 tons?) : four dummy satellites (code-named EPN 03.0695) launched by the Zenit rocket in 1986-1987 to simulate the rocket?s maximum payload mass to low orbit > > > > Bart Hendrickx > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bhen at telenet.be Sun Sep 25 08:11:29 2011 From: bhen at telenet.be (Bart Hendrickx) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 14:11:29 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] UARS down In-Reply-To: <370BCC32-89B0-4FB4-A95D-AA03CC2D70F3@gmail.com> References: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <8D1CD132-B2C3-4776-8181-87DA04B10661@earthlink.net> <001101cc7a7e$0b945440$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <3A26AD6D-3FED-47DE-AE72-99F6B535A61D@collectspace.com> <001e01cc7b0f$b390d100$1ab27300$@be> <370BCC32-89B0-4FB4-A95D-AA03CC2D70F3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001cc7b7c$41cae980$c560bc80$@be> John Charles wrote : Re: the 1987 Kvant space tug. Why couldn't the delta v used to boost it into a storage orbit instead be used to deorbit it? Not to mention the apparent decision simply to delay a decision (as if the storage orbit was forever)? It doesn?t look like there was enough propellant left on board to de-orbit the vehicle. After the maneuver (which burned the propellants to depletion) it ended up in a 383x406 km orbit, just about 40 km higher than Mir?s orbit. Apparently, they decided to use the remaining propellant just to get it out of harm?s way. The only mystery is why they moved it to a higher rather than a lower orbit, which would have minimized orbital lifetime. Bart Hendrickx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjp961 at svol.net Sun Sep 25 10:32:42 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 10:32:42 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Another previously lost Apollo moonrock located (from mission 17) Message-ID: <4e7f3c8e.c964cc0a.26d1.3622@mx.google.com> >From the Daily Mail (UK) photographs at the URL link http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2040589/Missing-Apollo-17-moon-rock- worth-10m-Bill-Clintons-files.html Missing Apollo 17 moon rock worth $10m found in Bill Clinton's files By Rachel Quigley Last updated at 5:44 PM on 22nd September 2011 An Apollo 17 moon rock missing for 30 years and believed to be worth up to $10 million has turned up in files belonging to Bill Clinton. The valuable rock was one of 50 presented to each state after the 1972 space mission. NASA has found that since the rocks have been distributed, a very low percentage - which are encased in acrylic and mounted on a plaque along with the intended recipient's flag - can actually be located. The rock, believed to have a black market value of up to $10 million, had been missing since at least 1980 until an archivist found it in old gubernatorial papers. Bobby Roberts, director of the Central Arkansas Library System, said the archivist opened a box previously archived as 'Arkansas flag plaque'. The rock and a state flag were originally affixed to the plaque, but the rock had fallen off and the plaque had been misplaced. 'The moon rock, which is in a plastic container, had fallen off the plaque,' Mr Roberts told NBC. 'The archivist immediately knew what he had discovered.' Three months after Apollo 17 returned home in December 1972, then-U.S. President Richard Nixon ordered the distribution of fragments from the rock that Astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmitt collected to 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its provinces. Approximately 60 of these have been located recently, the others lost or stolen. The Arkansas rock was originally presented to Gov. David Pryor in 1976 and hung in the governor's office during the term of Pryor's successor, the future president. Mr Roberts believes that when Clinton lost his bid for re-election in 1980, everything got packed up and the plaque and its rock from outer space were misplaced. Last year, Hawaii's missing moon rocks were found in a locked cabinet. The rocks weren't technically lost, an advisor to Hawaii's governor said, they just didn't know exactly where they were. New Jersey officials reported earlier this year that they had misplaced their rock and were appealing to the public for its whereabouts. The garden state's inquiry began in January at the suggestion of Joseph Gutheinz of Houston, a retired NASA investigator who has spent several years tracking the Apollo 17 gifts. Mr Gutheinz now teaches a University of Phoenix class in forensic investigation, and often assigns his students the task of confirming the relics' locations. The rocks - when they were given as gifts - became property of the state that they were donated to. MOON ROCKS Near the end of the third and final moonwalk and what would be the last moonwalk of the Apollo programme, Apollo 17 astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmitt picked up a rock - later labeled sample 70017 - and made a special dedication to the young people of Earth and 'picked up a very significant rock, typical of what we have here in the valley of Taurus-Littrow...composed of many fragments, of many sizes, and many shapes, probably from all parts of the Moon, perhaps billions of years old'. Then President Richard Nixon ordered the distribution of fragments of that rock to 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its provinces. The fragments were presented encased in an acrylic sphere, mounted on a wood plaque which included the recipients flag which had also flown aboard Apollo 17. The rocks became the property of the countries or states who received them. As time passed, administrations or regimes changed, and the rocks were likely either lost, stolen or locked away who knows where -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjp961 at svol.net Sun Sep 25 09:42:35 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 09:42:35 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" Message-ID: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com> To paraphrase the National Endowment for the Arts slogan "A Great Nation Deserves Great Art" "A Great Nation Deserves a Great Space Program" But I would ask: Is the United States' space capabilities really in a state of atrophy? We have lunar missions on tap; we have Martian missions on tap..they're unmanned explorations though. What do you think? Agency France Presse via raw story http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/09/22/neil-armstrong-says-u-s-space-program- embarrassing/ Neil Armstrong says U.S. space program 'embarrassing' By Agence France-Presse September 22, 2011 @ 5:22 pm WASHINGTON - Neil Armstrong, the first man to walk on the moon, told lawmakers Thursday that the end of the space shuttle era has left the American human spaceflight program in an "embarrassing" state. "We will have no American access to, and return from, low Earth orbit and the International Space Station for an unpredictable length of time in the future," Armstrong told the House Committee on Science, Space, and Technology. "For a country that has invested so much for so long to achieve a leadership position in space exploration and exploitation, this condition is viewed by many as lamentably embarrassing and unacceptable." Armstrong was part of a four-member panel of space experts who told lawmakers that NASA needs a stronger vision for the future and should focus on returning humans to the Moon and to the International Space Station. "A lead, however earnestly and expensively won, once lost, is nearly impossible to regain," said the US astronaut, now 81, who was commander of Apollo 11 and walked on the Moon in 1969. President Barack Obama canceled the Constellation program that would have returned humans to the Moon and called on NASA to instead focus on new, deep-space capabilities to carry people to an asteroid by 2025 and Mars by 2030. The retirement in July of the three-decade-old space shuttle program brought an end to the US capability to send humans to space until private industry can come up with a new commercial space capsule to the ISS, maybe by 2015. In the meantime, Russia's Soyuz capsules are the only taxis for the world's astronauts heading to low-Earth orbit, and a ticket to the ISS costs global space agencies between 50 and 60 million dollars each. "Get the shuttle out of the garage down there at Kennedy (Space Center), crank up the motors and put it back in service," said Eugene Cernan, who commanded the Apollo 17 flight and was the last man to walk on the Moon in 1972. "You want a launch vehicle today that will service the ISS? We've got it sitting down there. So before we put it in a museum, let's make use of it. It's in the prime of its life, how could we just put it away?" Cernan hailed the vision of John F. Kennedy, "a bold and courageous president who started us on a journey to the stars," and said thousands of Americans have been inspired by the space race with the Soviet Union. "Today, we are on a path of decay. We are seeing the book close on five decades of accomplishment as the leader in human space exploration," Cernan said. Cernan said Constellation has been replaced by a "mission to nowhere" and called on NASA to make plans to return to the Moon. "As unimaginable as it seems, we have now come full circle and ceded our leadership role in space back to the same country -- albeit by a different name -- that spurred our challenge five decades ago." He added: "I take no solace in the failure of the last Soyuz booster." Due to technical problem with a Soyuz rocket in August, a Russian cargo ship failed to reach orbit and crashed back to Earth, prompting Russia to temporarily ground a part of its Soyuz program to do emergency checks. Armstrong and others on the panel appeared to favor the unveiling earlier this month of a massive new launcher capable of powering manned space flights well beyond low-Earth orbit, the Space Launch System, which NASA called the most powerful rocket since the Saturn V rocket put US astronauts on the moon. Maria Zuber, principal investigator on NASA's unmanned GRAIL (Gravity Recovery and Interior Laboratory) mission that launched earlier this month to orbit the Moon, said lunar study is valuable, but noted that her students are inspired by the notion of exploring Mars. "The goal of human exploration of Mars is also the consensus opinion of the next generation who will carry out this challenge," she said. "Unfortunately Congress is cutting back NASA's advanced technology work and it is not clear how the agency will be able to unfold new advanced missions without a more concentrated effort to develop new technologies. Michael Griffin, professor of mechanical and aerospace engineering at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, raised concerns about a new space race and called China, which wants to put a robot on the Moon in 2013 and build its own space station for 2015, "a near-peer competitor." "When the Chinese can reach the Moon and we cannot, I do not see why any other nation would regard us as a world leader," he said. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbcharle at gmail.com Sun Sep 25 16:55:11 2011 From: jbcharle at gmail.com (John) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 15:55:11 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] UARS down In-Reply-To: <000001cc7b7c$41cae980$c560bc80$@be> References: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <8D1CD132-B2C3-4776-8181-87DA04B10661@earthlink.net> <001101cc7a7e$0b945440$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <3A26AD6D-3FED-47DE-AE72-99F6B535A61D@collectspace.com> <001e01cc7b0f$b390d100$1ab27300$@be> <370BCC32-89B0-4FB4-A95D-AA03CC2D70F3@gmail.com> <000001cc7b7c$41cae980$c560bc80$@be> Message-ID: Bart, that is what baffled me, too. Reminds me of "Marooned" when the astronomy JBC Sent from my iPhone. Please forgive typos. On Sep 25, 2011, at 7:11, "Bart Hendrickx" wrote: > John Charles wrote : > > > > Re: the 1987 Kvant space tug. Why couldn't the delta v used to boost it into a storage orbit instead be used to deorbit it? > > > > Not to mention the apparent decision simply to delay a decision (as if the storage orbit was forever)? > > It doesn?t look like there was enough propellant left on board to de-orbit the vehicle. After the maneuver (which burned the propellants to depletion) it ended up in a 383x406 km orbit, just about 40 km higher than Mir?s orbit. Apparently, they decided to use the remaining propellant just to get it out of harm?s way. The only mystery is why they moved it to a higher rather than a lower orbit, which would have minimized orbital lifetime. > > > > Bart Hendrickx > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john.b.charles at nasa.gov Sun Sep 25 16:58:26 2011 From: john.b.charles at nasa.gov (Charles, John B. (JSC-SA211)) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 15:58:26 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] UARS down In-Reply-To: References: <000501cc7a7c$7be2db60$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <8D1CD132-B2C3-4776-8181-87DA04B10661@earthlink.net> <001101cc7a7e$0b945440$6ed6fea9@DELLMASTER> <3A26AD6D-3FED-47DE-AE72-99F6B535A61D@collectspace.com> <001e01cc7b0f$b390d100$1ab27300$@be> <370BCC32-89B0-4FB4-A95D-AA03CC2D70F3@gmail.com> <000001cc7b7c$41cae980$c560bc80$@be> Message-ID: <3CD641D4-9E34-4B28-B799-00E34DE546D7@nasa.gov> Disregard all after "baffled me too" please, in previous message. JBC Sent from my iPhone. Please forgive typos. On Sep 25, 2011, at 15:55, "John" > wrote: Bart, that is what baffled me, too. Reminds me of "Marooned" when the astronomy JBC Sent from my iPhone. Please forgive typos. On Sep 25, 2011, at 7:11, "Bart Hendrickx" <bhen at telenet.be> wrote: John Charles wrote : Re: the 1987 Kvant space tug. Why couldn't the delta v used to boost it into a storage orbit instead be used to deorbit it? Not to mention the apparent decision simply to delay a decision (as if the storage orbit was forever)? It doesn?t look like there was enough propellant left on board to de-orbit the vehicle. After the maneuver (which burned the propellants to depletion) it ended up in a 383x406 km orbit, just about 40 km higher than Mir?s orbit. Apparently, they decided to use the remaining propellant just to get it out of harm?s way. The only mystery is why they moved it to a higher rather than a lower orbit, which would have minimized orbital lifetime. Bart Hendrickx _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Sun Sep 25 20:30:28 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 18:30:28 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com> References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com> Message-ID: I think Neil could have this about the American space program five years ago. Why wait until now? Plus the article contain inaccuracies. We aren't waiting on private enterprise to build a Shuttle successor: we're renting services from the Russians, the way we did after Columbia broke up, and NASA is building a new piloted spacecraft not very different from the one Bush was underfunding. China a "near-peer competitor" - what can Griffin mean? He can't mean in terms of space travel. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ From: pjp961 at svol.net To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 09:42:35 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" To paraphrase the National Endowment for the Arts slogan ?A Great Nation Deserves Great Art? ?A Great Nation Deserves a Great Space Program? But I would ask: Is the United States? space capabilities really in a state of atrophy? We have lunar missions on tap; we have Martian missions on tap?.they?re unmanned explorations though? What do you think? Agency France Presse via raw story http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/09/22/neil-armstrong-says-u-s-space-program-embarrassing/ Neil Armstrong says U.S. space program ?embarrassing? By Agence France-Presse September 22, 2011 @ 5:22 pm WASHINGTON ? Neil Armstrong, the first man to walk on the moon, told lawmakers Thursday that the end of the space shuttle era has left the American human spaceflight program in an "embarrassing" state. "We will have no American access to, and return from, low Earth orbit and the International Space Station for an unpredictable length of time in the future," Armstrong told the House Committee on Science, Space, and Technology. "For a country that has invested so much for so long to achieve a leadership position in space exploration and exploitation, this condition is viewed by many as lamentably embarrassing and unacceptable." Armstrong was part of a four-member panel of space experts who told lawmakers that NASA needs a stronger vision for the future and should focus on returning humans to the Moon and to the International Space Station. "A lead, however earnestly and expensively won, once lost, is nearly impossible to regain," said the US astronaut, now 81, who was commander of Apollo 11 and walked on the Moon in 1969. President Barack Obama canceled the Constellation program that would have returned humans to the Moon and called on NASA to instead focus on new, deep-space capabilities to carry people to an asteroid by 2025 and Mars by 2030. The retirement in July of the three-decade-old space shuttle program brought an end to the US capability to send humans to space until private industry can come up with a new commercial space capsule to the ISS, maybe by 2015. In the meantime, Russia's Soyuz capsules are the only taxis for the world's astronauts heading to low-Earth orbit, and a ticket to the ISS costs global space agencies between 50 and 60 million dollars each. "Get the shuttle out of the garage down there at Kennedy (Space Center), crank up the motors and put it back in service," said Eugene Cernan, who commanded the Apollo 17 flight and was the last man to walk on the Moon in 1972. "You want a launch vehicle today that will service the ISS? We've got it sitting down there. So before we put it in a museum, let's make use of it. It's in the prime of its life, how could we just put it away?" Cernan hailed the vision of John F. Kennedy, "a bold and courageous president who started us on a journey to the stars," and said thousands of Americans have been inspired by the space race with the Soviet Union. "Today, we are on a path of decay. We are seeing the book close on five decades of accomplishment as the leader in human space exploration," Cernan said. Cernan said Constellation has been replaced by a "mission to nowhere" and called on NASA to make plans to return to the Moon. "As unimaginable as it seems, we have now come full circle and ceded our leadership role in space back to the same country -- albeit by a different name -- that spurred our challenge five decades ago." He added: "I take no solace in the failure of the last Soyuz booster." Due to technical problem with a Soyuz rocket in August, a Russian cargo ship failed to reach orbit and crashed back to Earth, prompting Russia to temporarily ground a part of its Soyuz program to do emergency checks. Armstrong and others on the panel appeared to favor the unveiling earlier this month of a massive new launcher capable of powering manned space flights well beyond low-Earth orbit, the Space Launch System, which NASA called the most powerful rocket since the Saturn V rocket put US astronauts on the moon. Maria Zuber, principal investigator on NASA's unmanned GRAIL (Gravity Recovery and Interior Laboratory) mission that launched earlier this month to orbit the Moon, said lunar study is valuable, but noted that her students are inspired by the notion of exploring Mars. "The goal of human exploration of Mars is also the consensus opinion of the next generation who will carry out this challenge," she said. "Unfortunately Congress is cutting back NASA's advanced technology work and it is not clear how the agency will be able to unfold new advanced missions without a more concentrated effort to develop new technologies. Michael Griffin, professor of mechanical and aerospace engineering at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, raised concerns about a new space race and called China, which wants to put a robot on the Moon in 2013 and build its own space station for 2015, "a near-peer competitor." "When the Chinese can reach the Moon and we cannot, I do not see why any other nation would regard us as a world leader," he said. _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Sun Sep 25 20:48:06 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (davidlrickman at aol.com) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 20:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com> I don't think it would have been nearly as effective five years ago. We still had a manned space program that wasn't dependent on the Russians, and it's unlikely he and Cernan would have had an audience with Congress. I don't agree with everything they said, but I think the spirit of the message hit the nail right on the head. Regards, David L. Rickman -----Original Message----- From: David Portree To: pjp961 ; fpspace Sent: Sun, Sep 25, 2011 4:30 pm Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" I think Neil could have this about the American space program five years ago. Why wait until now? Plus the article contain inaccuracies. We aren't waiting on private enterprise to build a Shuttle successor: we're renting services from the Russians, the way we did after Columbia broke up, and NASA is building a new piloted spacecraft not very different from the one Bush was underfunding. China a "near-peer competitor" - what can Griffin mean? He can't mean in terms of space travel. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ From: pjp961 at svol.net To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 09:42:35 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" To paraphrase the National Endowment for the Arts slogan ?A Great Nation Deserves Great Art? ?A Great Nation Deserves a Great Space Program? But I would ask: Is the United States? spacecapabilities really in a state of atrophy? We have lunar missions on tap;we have Martian missions on tap?.they?re unmanned explorationsthough? What do you think? Agency France Presse via raw story http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/09/22/neil-armstrong-says-u-s-space-program-embarrassing/ NeilArmstrong says U.S.space program ?embarrassing? By AgenceFrance-Presse September 22, 2011 @ 5:22 pm WASHINGTON ? Neil Armstrong, the firstman to walk on the moon, told lawmakers Thursday that the end of the spaceshuttle era has left the American human spaceflight program in an"embarrassing" state. "We will have no American access to, andreturn from, low Earth orbit and the International Space Station for anunpredictable length of time in the future," Armstrong told the HouseCommittee on Science, Space, and Technology. "For a country that has invested so muchfor so long to achieve a leadership position in space exploration andexploitation, this condition is viewed by many as lamentably embarrassing andunacceptable." Armstrong was part of a four-member panel ofspace experts who told lawmakers that NASA needs a stronger vision for thefuture and should focus on returning humans to the Moon and to theInternational Space Station. "A lead, however earnestly andexpensively won, once lost, is nearly impossible to regain," said the US astronaut,now 81, who was commander of Apollo 11 and walked on the Moon in 1969. President Barack Obama canceled theConstellation program that would have returned humans to the Moon and called onNASA to instead focus on new, deep-space capabilities to carry people to anasteroid by 2025 and Mars by 2030. The retirement in July of the three-decade-oldspace shuttle program brought an end to the US capability to send humans tospace until private industry can come up with a new commercial space capsule tothe ISS, maybe by 2015. In the meantime, Russia's Soyuz capsules are theonly taxis for the world's astronauts heading to low-Earth orbit, and a ticketto the ISS costs global space agencies between 50 and 60 million dollars each. "Get the shuttle out of the garage downthere at Kennedy (Space Center), crank up themotors and put it back in service," said Eugene Cernan, who commanded theApollo 17 flight and was the last man to walk on the Moon in 1972. "You want a launch vehicle today thatwill service the ISS? We've got it sitting down there. So before we put it in amuseum, let's make use of it. It's in the prime of its life, how could we justput it away?" Cernan hailed the vision of John F. Kennedy,"a bold and courageous president who started us on a journey to thestars," and said thousands of Americans have been inspired by the spacerace with the Soviet Union. "Today, we are on a path of decay. We areseeing the book close on five decades of accomplishment as the leader in humanspace exploration," Cernan said. Cernan said Constellation has been replaced bya "mission to nowhere" and called on NASA to make plans to return tothe Moon. "As unimaginable as it seems, we have nowcome full circle and ceded our leadership role in space back to the samecountry -- albeit by a different name -- that spurred our challenge fivedecades ago." He added: "I take no solace in thefailure of the last Soyuz booster." Due to technical problem with a Soyuz rocketin August, a Russian cargo ship failed to reach orbit and crashed back toEarth, prompting Russiato temporarily ground a part of its Soyuz program to do emergency checks. Armstrong and others on the panel appeared tofavor the unveiling earlier this month of a massive new launcher capable ofpowering manned space flights well beyond low-Earth orbit, the Space LaunchSystem, which NASA called the most powerful rocket since the Saturn V rocketput US astronauts on the moon. Maria Zuber, principal investigator on NASA'sunmanned GRAIL (Gravity Recovery and Interior Laboratory) mission that launchedearlier this month to orbit the Moon, said lunar study is valuable, but notedthat her students are inspired by the notion of exploring Mars. "The goal of human exploration of Mars isalso the consensus opinion of the next generation who will carry out thischallenge," she said. "Unfortunately Congress is cutting backNASA's advanced technology work and it is not clear how the agency will be ableto unfold new advanced missions without a more concentrated effort to developnew technologies. Michael Griffin, professor of mechanical andaerospace engineering at the Universityof Alabama in Huntsville,raised concerns about a new space race and called China, which wants to put a roboton the Moon in 2013 and build its own space station for 2015, "a near-peercompetitor." "When the Chinese can reach the Moon andwe cannot, I do not see why any other nation would regard us as a worldleader," he said. _______________________________________________FPSPACE mailing listFPSPACE at www.friends-partners.orghttp://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jameseoberg at comcast.net Sun Sep 25 21:07:19 2011 From: jameseoberg at comcast.net (James E Oberg) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 20:07:19 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com> <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <2E24143A396042EEB5FD065587EB7FC8@ownerfbf08f40c> I see little change in the essentially balanced symmetry of US/Russian 'reluctant co-dependence' on ISS. They can get into orbit, but without US segment's power and comm gear, they have no useful place to go. I'm just annoyed that US negotiators thought our position was so weak, they agreed to the permanent imbalanced 6-person crew ratio of three Russians to two Americans, ALWAYS. Baseless complaints of US weakness and asymmetric dependancy may have had an effect on undermining the bargaining backbones of NASA officials -- or maybe not. ----- Original Message ----- From: davidlrickman at aol.com To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 7:48 PM Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" I don't think it would have been nearly as effective five years ago. We still had a manned space program that wasn't dependent on the Russians, and it's unlikely he and Cernan would have had an audience with Congress. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Sun Sep 25 21:17:28 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 19:17:28 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com> References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com>, , <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: The hearing was (yet more) GOP posturing. They've trotted out Armstrong and Cernan before, and they said the same things. Bush shut down the Shuttle, then underfunded its replacement - if that was such a bad thing, why didn't these people speak out before? Like, maybe in 2005 or 2006? Besides, we're still building the Shuttle replacement - despite the severe damage done to the economy on Bush's watch, which could be (and has been) used to justify killing discretionary programs (like human spaceflight). So, what do these people have to complain about anyway? Bunch of babies. And, as I indicated, reliance on the Russians is not a new thing, nor especially bad. We wouldn't even have a space station if we hadn't let them into the program. We weren't grounded after Columbia because we had access to Russian spacecraft, and Progress vehicles kept ISS from reentering. How we do human spaceflight changed almost 20 years ago. Time these guys worked that out. Griffin had a chance to get the Chinese into the program, but he blew it. His great strategy - use them like the Soviets in the 1960s. The trouble is - no one really cares. My sense is that heroes like Armstrong and Cernan show their frailties when they let themselves be used in this way. The GOP's use of them tarnishes them, as the GOP has tarnished so much about our country since 2000. It's sad and embarrassing. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ To: fpspace at friends-partners.org From: davidlrickman at aol.com Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 20:48:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" I don't think it would have been nearly as effective five years ago. We still had a manned space program that wasn't dependent on the Russians, and it's unlikely he and Cernan would have had an audience with Congress. I don't agree with everything they said, but I think the spirit of the message hit the nail right on the head. Regards, David L. Rickman -----Original Message----- From: David Portree To: pjp961 ; fpspace Sent: Sun, Sep 25, 2011 4:30 pm Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" I think Neil could have this about the American space program five years ago. Why wait until now? Plus the article contain inaccuracies. We aren't waiting on private enterprise to build a Shuttle successor: we're renting services from the Russians, the way we did after Columbia broke up, and NASA is building a new piloted spacecraft not very different from the one Bush was underfunding. China a "near-peer competitor" - what can Griffin mean? He can't mean in terms of space travel. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ From: pjp961 at svol.net To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 09:42:35 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" To paraphrase the National Endowment for the Arts slogan ?A Great Nation Deserves Great Art? ?A Great Nation Deserves a Great Space Program? But I would ask: Is the United States? space capabilities really in a state of atrophy? We have lunar missions on tap; we have Martian missions on tap?.they?re unmanned explorations though? What do you think? Agency France Presse via raw story http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/09/22/neil-armstrong-says-u-s-space-program-embarrassing/ Neil Armstrong says U.S. space program ?embarrassing? By Agence France-Presse September 22, 2011 @ 5:22 pm WASHINGTON ? Neil Armstrong, the first man to walk on the moon, told lawmakers Thursday that the end of the space shuttle era has left the American human spaceflight program in an "embarrassing" state. "We will have no American access to, and return from, low Earth orbit and the International Space Station for an unpredictable length of time in the future," Armstrong told the House Committee on Science, Space, and Technology. "For a country that has invested so much for so long to achieve a leadership position in space exploration and exploitation, this condition is viewed by many as lamentably embarrassing and unacceptable." Armstrong was part of a four-member panel of space experts who told lawmakers that NASA needs a stronger vision for the future and should focus on returning humans to the Moon and to the International Space Station. "A lead, however earnestly and expensively won, once lost, is nearly impossible to regain," said the US astronaut, now 81, who was commander of Apollo 11 and walked on the Moon in 1969. President Barack Obama canceled the Constellation program that would have returned humans to the Moon and called on NASA to instead focus on new, deep-space capabilities to carry people to an asteroid by 2025 and Mars by 2030. The retirement in July of the three-decade-old space shuttle program brought an end to the US capability to send humans to space until private industry can come up with a new commercial space capsule to the ISS, maybe by 2015. In the meantime, Russia's Soyuz capsules are the only taxis for the world's astronauts heading to low-Earth orbit, and a ticket to the ISS costs global space agencies between 50 and 60 million dollars each. "Get the shuttle out of the garage down there at Kennedy (Space Center), crank up the motors and put it back in service," said Eugene Cernan, who commanded the Apollo 17 flight and was the last man to walk on the Moon in 1972. "You want a launch vehicle today that will service the ISS? We've got it sitting down there. So before we put it in a museum, let's make use of it. It's in the prime of its life, how could we just put it away?" Cernan hailed the vision of John F. Kennedy, "a bold and courageous president who started us on a journey to the stars," and said thousands of Americans have been inspired by the space race with the Soviet Union. "Today, we are on a path of decay. We are seeing the book close on five decades of accomplishment as the leader in human space exploration," Cernan said. Cernan said Constellation has been replaced by a "mission to nowhere" and called on NASA to make plans to return to the Moon. "As unimaginable as it seems, we have now come full circle and ceded our leadership role in space back to the same country -- albeit by a different name -- that spurred our challenge five decades ago." He added: "I take no solace in the failure of the last Soyuz booster." Due to technical problem with a Soyuz rocket in August, a Russian cargo ship failed to reach orbit and crashed back to Earth, prompting Russia to temporarily ground a part of its Soyuz program to do emergency checks. Armstrong and others on the panel appeared to favor the unveiling earlier this month of a massive new launcher capable of powering manned space flights well beyond low-Earth orbit, the Space Launch System, which NASA called the most powerful rocket since the Saturn V rocket put US astronauts on the moon. Maria Zuber, principal investigator on NASA's unmanned GRAIL (Gravity Recovery and Interior Laboratory) mission that launched earlier this month to orbit the Moon, said lunar study is valuable, but noted that her students are inspired by the notion of exploring Mars. "The goal of human exploration of Mars is also the consensus opinion of the next generation who will carry out this challenge," she said. "Unfortunately Congress is cutting back NASA's advanced technology work and it is not clear how the agency will be able to unfold new advanced missions without a more concentrated effort to develop new technologies. Michael Griffin, professor of mechanical and aerospace engineering at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, raised concerns about a new space race and called China, which wants to put a robot on the Moon in 2013 and build its own space station for 2015, "a near-peer competitor." "When the Chinese can reach the Moon and we cannot, I do not see why any other nation would regard us as a world leader," he said. _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Sun Sep 25 21:24:42 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 19:24:42 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: <2E24143A396042EEB5FD065587EB7FC8@ownerfbf08f40c> References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com>, , <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com>, <2E24143A396042EEB5FD065587EB7FC8@ownerfbf08f40c> Message-ID: Jim: "Reluctant"? Folks in the trenches have had nearly 20 years to get used to working with the Russians as partners on board ISS. Plus, there's no "always" in the space program. We could change the crew ratio whenever we are ready to do so. For now, we aren't. So, what's to complain about? As long as the partners are doing each other's experiments, what's the problem? I do agree with your comment about "baseless complaints of US weakness," but I doubt that they have had much effect on anything except certain segments of the GOP base. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ From: jameseoberg at comcast.net To: fpspace at friends-partners.org; davidlrickman at aol.com Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 20:07:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" I see little change in the essentially balanced symmetry of US/Russian 'reluctant co-dependence' on ISS. They can get into orbit, but without US segment's power and comm gear, they have no useful place to go. I'm just annoyed that US negotiators thought our position was so weak, they agreed to the permanent imbalanced 6-person crew ratio of three Russians to two Americans, ALWAYS. Baseless complaints of US weakness and asymmetric dependancy may have had an effect on undermining the bargaining backbones of NASA officials -- or maybe not. ----- Original Message ----- From: davidlrickman at aol.com To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 7:48 PM Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" I don't think it would have been nearly as effective five years ago. We still had a manned space program that wasn't dependent on the Russians, and it's unlikely he and Cernan would have had an audience with Congress. _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jameseoberg at comcast.net Sun Sep 25 22:20:40 2011 From: jameseoberg at comcast.net (James E Oberg) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 21:20:40 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com>, , <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com>, <2E24143A396042EEB5FD065587EB7FC8@ownerfbf08f40c> Message-ID: <6FFA7F40C46F43A18DBDAE10EADDB9CC@ownerfbf08f40c> ----- Original Message ----- From: David Portree To: jameseoberg at comcast.net ; fpspace at friends-partners.org ; davidlrickman at aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 8:24 PM Subject: RE: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" Jim: "Reluctant"? Folks in the trenches have had nearly 20 years to get used to working with the Russians as partners on board ISS. David, since I've been in those trenches and you haven't, I might have a better sense of the sense of the team. Plus, there's no "always" in the space program. We could change the crew ratio whenever we are ready to do so. For now, we aren't. So, what's to complain about? As long as the partners are doing each other's experiments, what's the problem? Begging your pardon, but how do 'we' change the ratio when it's clear the Russians won't agree? I do agree with your comment about "baseless complaints of US weakness," but I doubt that they have had much effect on anything except certain segments of the GOP base. David, your constantly flaunting your political biases was the reason I de-friended you on Facebook, it was just wearisome. And it was a high price to pay since I value your technical and historical assessments so highly. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jameseoberg at comcast.net Sun Sep 25 22:24:21 2011 From: jameseoberg at comcast.net (James E Oberg) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 21:24:21 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com>, , <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <5F5754E661514E48A8322517262FFF1E@ownerfbf08f40c> ----- Original Message ----- From: David Portree Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 8:17 PM Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" ...despite the severe damage done to the economy on Bush's watch By the Democratic-controlled Congress, I might whimsically reposte, and by worldwide issues such as oil prices.... The surest way to deeper disaster is to misdiagnose the causes of a problem, so the prescribed remedies may not only NOT be helpful, they may make things worse. As -- well, look around us. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kgottschalk at uwc.ac.za Mon Sep 26 02:10:46 2011 From: kgottschalk at uwc.ac.za (Keith Gottschalk) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 08:10:46 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] ] Russia to build the Trans Bering Straight Railway by 2045 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E803386020000A600012B00@uwc.ac.za> It's not clear to me how a trans-Bering straits tunnel is linked to space flight, but let's take it in the spirit that all exploration is fun & interesting to most members of this email forum :) :) Talking as a political scientist, when someone announces a company project, or a govt. project, that is thirty-four years in the future, I do not believe it unless they prove they are serious by allocating a budget, & ring-fencing those funds in a escrow account or the equivalent. Other details confirm my scepticism. For example, claiming they will build an undersea railway, which would be over 1000 kms from the nearest railhead on the Alaska side (Fairbanks?) & over 2000 kms from the nearest railway on the Siberian side. Then too, what gauge would the railway tracks be laid at? Russian railways are on a wider gauge than that Alaska railway. Similarly, since both Siberia & Alaska export oil, where is the profit in building pipelines under the sea? You build pipelines between exporter & consumer. Anyway, have lots of tourist fun inspecting the potential sites for this. It's absolute National Geographic magazine countryside, & say hello to the sea-lions & walruses for me! - Keith >>> On 2011/09/24 at 11:55 PM, in message , LARRY KLAES wrote: This Ain*t Your Ancestors* Ice Bridge * Russia To Build Tunnel Across Bering Strait by Peter Murray September 15th, 2011 At 64 miles (103 km), it would not only be the longest tunnel in the world, it would more than double the currently longest British Channel Tunnel. It would span the Bering Straight and connect Russia to Alaska. Details are sketchy, but consensus indicates the tunnel would have a highway, high-speed rail tracks, a fiber optic network and pipelines for gas and oil. The total cost for the tunnel is projected at $65 billion USD. Full article here: http://singularityhub.com/2011/09/15/this-aint-your-ancestors-ice-bridge-%E2%80%93-russia-to-build-tunnel-across-bering-strait/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- All Email originating from UWC is covered by disclaimer http://www.uwc.ac.za/emaildisclaimer From japio at dds.nl Mon Sep 26 07:26:44 2011 From: japio at dds.nl (Jakob Terweij) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 13:26:44 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Current Status of Vyacheslav Filin? In-Reply-To: <8CE45E4A21D3274-21A0-4E5C7@webmail-m072.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE45E4A21D3274-21A0-4E5C7@webmail-m072.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20110926132644.3abmed502osgwwg0@webmail.dds.nl> He is now retired and is acting as consultant in Energya. I'll meet him in 1 hour here in Podlipki his telephone is +74957642683 . I remeber spomebody from the group asked his number a few weeks ago. Greetings Jakob Quoting davidlrickman at aol.com: > > FPSpacers, > > > > What is the current status of Vyacheslav Filin? I see that he was > fired over a Proton related failure in 2010, but RSC Energia still > shows him as Vice President and First Deputy General Designer. > > > Thanks in advance, > > > David L. Rickman > Jakob Terweij j van Lennepstraat 249C 1053 JD Amsterdam +31651549606 From dokter.nuyens at telenet.be Mon Sep 26 08:26:26 2011 From: dokter.nuyens at telenet.be (Zeger Nuyens) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 14:26:26 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" Message-ID: <4E806F72.8060803@telenet.be> Amen to that. The simple and embarrasing bottomline is that the US payed for most of the ISS and now they can't get there by themselves. US politicians (Dems and Reps alike) should do some soul-searching and get their act together instead of trying to get the most out of it for their own states. The sad thing is though that without that interest they are just not interested in space at all. I think it was Phillip Clark who (a quote I think) said politicians should have their brains surgically removed, I think it wouldn't make one tiny bit of difference at all. Zeger Nuyens > The hearing was (yet more) GOP posturing. They've trotted out Armstrong and Cernan before, and they said the same things. > Bush shut down the Shuttle, then underfunded its replacement - if that was such a bad thing, why didn't these people speak out before? Like, maybe in 2005 or 2006? > Besides, we're still building the Shuttle replacement - despite the severe damage done to the economy on Bush's watch, which could be (and has been) used to justify killing discretionary programs (like human spaceflight). So, what do these people have to complain about anyway? Bunch of babies. > And, as I indicated, reliance on the Russians is not a new thing, nor especially bad. We wouldn't even have a space station if we hadn't let them into the program. We weren't grounded after Columbia because we had access to Russian spacecraft, and Progress vehicles kept ISS from reentering. How we do human spaceflight changed almost 20 years ago. Time these guys worked that out. > Griffin had a chance to get the Chinese into the program, but he blew it. His great strategy - use them like the Soviets in the 1960s. The trouble is - no one really cares. > My sense is that heroes like Armstrong and Cernan show their frailties when they let themselves be used in this way. The GOP's use of them tarnishes them, as the GOP has tarnished so much about our country since 2000. It's sad and embarrassing. > > David S. F. Portree From robert_law at yahoo.com Mon Sep 26 09:30:53 2011 From: robert_law at yahoo.com (Robert Law) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 06:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Chinese space station Tiangong -1 Message-ID: <1317043853.71761.YahooMailNeo@web31707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A full simulated countdown and tests where completed at the space launch centre yesterday CCTV NEWS ? channel ?has started to pick up coverage made first recording this morning pictures of the CZ-3 Rocket ?with more?powerful?SRBs? the fairing at the top is slightly larger than when a shenzu ?space ship is attached ?also like the Saturn V Skylab ?there is no launch escape tower unfortunately?tomorows planed?launch?looks like it is going to slip to later in the week due to the weather the launch window is due to open tonight ?and close Friday Robert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Mon Sep 26 09:56:47 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 07:56:47 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: <6FFA7F40C46F43A18DBDAE10EADDB9CC@ownerfbf08f40c> References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com>, , <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com>, <2E24143A396042EEB5FD065587EB7FC8@ownerfbf08f40c> , <6FFA7F40C46F43A18DBDAE10EADDB9CC@ownerfbf08f40c> Message-ID: Jim: I don't see it as partisan, I see it as reality. Nothing I have written is factually incorrect. As I said, the way we do spaceflight changed 20 years ago. Bush the First started the push to merge with the Russians, Clinton expanded it. Anyone who is still having trouble with that and in the program needs a wakeup call really bad. And, how are you in the trenches any more than I am? My job is wholly NASA funded. Is yours? All the station partners have imposed requirements on each other. If we want more representation on board ISS, we negotiate for it. I took issue with your statement that the current crew imbalance is somehow carved in stone. Nothing else has been: why should that be? Statements that imply that were trapped in some negative relationship are merely inflammatory. I don't defriend people because I disagree with their political viewpoints. I think that's the act of someone who cannot consider alternate positions. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ From: jameseoberg at comcast.net To: dsfportree at hotmail.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org; davidlrickman at aol.com Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 21:20:40 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: David Portree To: jameseoberg at comcast.net ; fpspace at friends-partners.org ; davidlrickman at aol.com Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 8:24 PM Subject: RE: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" Jim: "Reluctant"? Folks in the trenches have had nearly 20 years to get used to working with the Russians as partners on board ISS. David, since I've been in those trenches and you haven't, I might have a better sense of the sense of the team. Plus, there's no "always" in the space program. We could change the crew ratio whenever we are ready to do so. For now, we aren't. So, what's to complain about? As long as the partners are doing each other's experiments, what's the problem? Begging your pardon, but how do 'we' change the ratio when it's clear the Russians won't agree? I do agree with your comment about "baseless complaints of US weakness," but I doubt that they have had much effect on anything except certain segments of the GOP base. David, your constantly flaunting your political biases was the reason I de-friended you on Facebook, it was just wearisome. And it was a high price to pay since I value your technical and historical assessments so highly. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Mon Sep 26 10:06:21 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 08:06:21 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: <5F5754E661514E48A8322517262FFF1E@ownerfbf08f40c> References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com>, , <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com> , <5F5754E661514E48A8322517262FFF1E@ownerfbf08f40c> Message-ID: Bush II was President, so it happened on his watch. Bush exercised his veto powers more than any President in recent memory, so it's not as if he bowed to the whims of Congress. And how can you not mention the enormous cost of conquering and occupying Iraq, while at the same time cutting taxes? I submit that the GOP needs to take responsibility and begin working to undo the damage done by its most recent President, not ceaselessly seeking to position itself for a return to power. I further submit that I am not partisan, I am American, and I am eager to see our country succeed. Hence my willingness to call a spade a spade. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ From: jameseoberg at comcast.net To: dsfportree at hotmail.com; davidlrickman at aol.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 21:24:21 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: David Portree Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 8:17 PM Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" ...despite the severe damage done to the economy on Bush's watch By the Democratic-controlled Congress, I might whimsically reposte, and by worldwide issues such as oil prices.... The surest way to deeper disaster is to misdiagnose the causes of a problem, so the prescribed remedies may not only NOT be helpful, they may make things worse. As -- well, look around us. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Mon Sep 26 10:21:18 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 08:21:18 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: <4E806F72.8060803@telenet.be> References: <4E806F72.8060803@telenet.be> Message-ID: Zeger: I don't see it as embarrassing. If we have a partnership, then we can rely on each other. We have done so before, in the aftermath of Columbia. Besides, even when they jack up their prices, access via the Russians is much cheaper than access via Shuttle. The embarrassing thing is that some people in NASA haven't worked out that the world changed 20 years ago. That said, I wish Bush II had not killed Shuttle. A flight a year would have been useful, and would have kept us with an independent resupply/crew exchange capability until we had a replacement in place. During the period when many bought the Bush II plan to replace Shuttle with a moon program (which was actually Griffin's plan, not Bush's, but Bush didn't care, so didn't rein him in - read the January 2004 Vision paper), folks were falling all over themselves to kill Shuttle. Even while Bush II consistently underfunded its replacement. Now that those actions have come home to roost, we need to take stock of where we are and what we have, and acknowledge that we've lived in a fantasy world since 2004. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 14:26:26 +0200 > From: dokter.nuyens at telenet.be > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org > Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" > > Amen to that. > The simple and embarrasing bottomline is that the US payed for most of > the ISS and now they can't get there by themselves. US politicians (Dems > and Reps alike) should do some soul-searching and get their act together > instead of trying to get the most out of it for their own states. The > sad thing is though that without that interest they are just not > interested in space at all. > I think it was Phillip Clark who (a quote I think) said politicians > should have their brains surgically removed, I think it wouldn't make > one tiny bit of difference at all. > > Zeger Nuyens > > > The hearing was (yet more) GOP posturing. They've trotted out Armstrong and Cernan before, and they said the same things. > > Bush shut down the Shuttle, then underfunded its replacement - if that was such a bad thing, why didn't these people speak out before? Like, maybe in 2005 or 2006? > > Besides, we're still building the Shuttle replacement - despite the severe damage done to the economy on Bush's watch, which could be (and has been) used to justify killing discretionary programs (like human spaceflight). So, what do these people have to complain about anyway? Bunch of babies. > > And, as I indicated, reliance on the Russians is not a new thing, nor especially bad. We wouldn't even have a space station if we hadn't let them into the program. We weren't grounded after Columbia because we had access to Russian spacecraft, and Progress vehicles kept ISS from reentering. How we do human spaceflight changed almost 20 years ago. Time these guys worked that out. > > Griffin had a chance to get the Chinese into the program, but he blew it. His great strategy - use them like the Soviets in the 1960s. The trouble is - no one really cares. > > My sense is that heroes like Armstrong and Cernan show their frailties when they let themselves be used in this way. The GOP's use of them tarnishes them, as the GOP has tarnished so much about our country since 2000. It's sad and embarrassing. > > > > David S. F. Portree > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dokter.nuyens at telenet.be Mon Sep 26 12:03:00 2011 From: dokter.nuyens at telenet.be (Zeger Nuyens) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 18:03:00 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: References: <4E806F72.8060803@telenet.be> Message-ID: <4E80A234.80908@telenet.be> David, The only point I wanted to make is the simple fact that if you want independent access to space you need your own machine to get there. Now that's something the US is very capable of doing as they proved it during 50 years. This looks like post-Skylab revisited and as a matter of fact, it is even worse because at that time at least they were building something and, yes there were some delays. This is like crying wolf and nobody there when the extent of the damage finally dawns. When I wanted a new job I first got one and after that I quit the first one. I agree with your comments especially Russian access being much cheaper than the Shuttle, but then any access is cheaper than the Shuttle and Bush's fantasies have cost us dearly. Zeger Nuyens On 09/26/2011 04:21 PM, David Portree wrote: > Zeger: > > I don't see it as embarrassing. If we have a partnership, then we can > rely on each other. We have done so before, in the aftermath of > Columbia. Besides, even when they jack up their prices, access via the > Russians is much cheaper than access via Shuttle. The embarrassing > thing is that some people in NASA haven't worked out that the world > changed 20 years ago. > > That said, I wish Bush II had not killed Shuttle. A flight a year > would have been useful, and would have kept us with an independent > resupply/crew exchange capability until we had a replacement in place. > During the period when many bought the Bush II plan to replace Shuttle > with a moon program (which was actually Griffin's plan, not Bush's, > but Bush didn't care, so didn't rein him in - read the January 2004 > Vision paper), folks were falling all over themselves to kill Shuttle. > Even while Bush II consistently underfunded its replacement. Now that > those actions have come home to roost, we need to take stock of where > we are and what we have, and acknowledge that we've lived in a fantasy > world since 2004. > > David S. F. Portree > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > dportree at usgs.gov > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > > Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 14:26:26 +0200 > > From: dokter.nuyens at telenet.be > > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org > > Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US > Space Program in "Embarrassing State" > > > > Amen to that. > > The simple and embarrasing bottomline is that the US payed for most of > > the ISS and now they can't get there by themselves. US politicians > (Dems > > and Reps alike) should do some soul-searching and get their act > together > > instead of trying to get the most out of it for their own states. The > > sad thing is though that without that interest they are just not > > interested in space at all. > > I think it was Phillip Clark who (a quote I think) said politicians > > should have their brains surgically removed, I think it wouldn't make > > one tiny bit of difference at all. > > > > Zeger Nuyens > > > > > The hearing was (yet more) GOP posturing. They've trotted out > Armstrong and Cernan before, and they said the same things. > > > Bush shut down the Shuttle, then underfunded its replacement - if > that was such a bad thing, why didn't these people speak out before? > Like, maybe in 2005 or 2006? > > > Besides, we're still building the Shuttle replacement - despite > the severe damage done to the economy on Bush's watch, which could be > (and has been) used to justify killing discretionary programs (like > human spaceflight). So, what do these people have to complain about > anyway? Bunch of babies. > > > And, as I indicated, reliance on the Russians is not a new thing, > nor especially bad. We wouldn't even have a space station if we hadn't > let them into the program. We weren't grounded after Columbia because > we had access to Russian spacecraft, and Progress vehicles kept ISS > from reentering. How we do human spaceflight changed almost 20 years > ago. Time these guys worked that out. > > > Griffin had a chance to get the Chinese into the program, but he > blew it. His great strategy - use them like the Soviets in the 1960s. > The trouble is - no one really cares. > > > My sense is that heroes like Armstrong and Cernan show their > frailties when they let themselves be used in this way. The GOP's use > of them tarnishes them, as the GOP has tarnished so much about our > country since 2000. It's sad and embarrassing. > > > > > > David S. F. Portree > > > > _______________________________________________ > > FPSPACE mailing list > > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cpgorski at gmail.com Mon Sep 26 13:32:06 2011 From: cpgorski at gmail.com (Christopher Gorski) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 13:32:06 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com> <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com> <5F5754E661514E48A8322517262FFF1E@ownerfbf08f40c> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 10:06 AM, David Portree I further submit that I am not partisan, I am American, and I am eager to > see our country succeed. Hence my willingness to call a spade a spade. > Commendable enough. Next you can work on the notion that the GOP is made up of Americans too, whose motivations are similar (eager to see our nation succeed) even if their methods are radically different. I submit that both parties have made the space program into an expense line-item politically and THAT is the root of the problem. Neither the members of the Democratic nor Republican parties want to be seen as spending money on anything not absolutely necessary right now--unless it's in their district, of course... If a politician can push a seemingly-good but expensive program with long-term benefit past the end of his term, he can be seen as not spending the money. And if the program ultimately fails, he can blame the next guy. So right now we have a couple presidents in a row who don't care about this, each willing to talk big about what we could be doing in twenty years, each knowing full well the Congress won't appropriate the money for them and that they'll be long gone before most of the public sees that nothing ever happened. On the off chance they succeed, they want some Kennedy-esque glory for having 'started' the ball rolling--but for now it's a game of political hot-potato... And THAT is why (Peter) our space program's gotten to an embarrassing place. And I think it has, and I don't think ISS has done much for us in that respect. It's kind of discouraging to compare what we've got with the 'plans for space utilization' from the 1980s, which called for the space station to be a base of operations for all sorts of work, for tugs to be able to bring satellites there for repair (and then redeploy them), and the like... right now we fly to an orbit that's got such an inclination that it costs a ton of fuel just to get there, and an impractical amount more to get from there to anything else (...Moon, satellites, ...), and we were afraid to go anywhere else at all even when we did have the means. So right now we have two guys on a base of Russian location (an orbit that overflies Baikonur) and we have to buy tickets from the Russians to get there, and we talk about the fixed lifespan of the ISS but don't have any plans whatsoever for what to do next (the moon! no, Mars! no, an asteroid!). Yeah, it's a bit embarrassing for the country that went from the first powered flight to walking on the Moon in 66 years to not even be able to fly people to the Moon--*or even low Earth orbit*--42 years later. It's like our national curiosity was sated with Apollo 11, we've been to space and done all that, and now our attention span is so short we're on to something else. Like Twitter. The manned version of Dragon will fix some of this when it comes online--but we'll still need someplace to go once we get into orbit. In the end, I think it's interesting that making our state-of-the-art spacecraft from 1981 reusable, we've removed the impetus to make a more efficient version anywhere along the next three decades... anything that couldn't be done as part of a regular OMDP just wasn't considered. Soyuz has been through a couple iterations in that time, though strictly I know few of the details. Will be interesting to see what pressures drive the continuing development of commercial 'space taxis', to borrow the term. Cheers, --me -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Mon Sep 26 14:31:22 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 12:31:22 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: References: <4e7f2feb.080f650a.43d2.77d4@mx.google.com> , <8CE49FD16CFB9A7-2DE0-F248B@webmail-d156.sysops.aol.com> , <5F5754E661514E48A8322517262FFF1E@ownerfbf08f40c> , Message-ID: I really wonder whether the GOP is in touch enough with reality to know what the country's best interests are. Holding hostage disaster relief and unemployment benefits to score points - it's shameful. And dissing science for the same reasons - bizaare. But never mind, that's not directly related to the discussion at hand. Our space station was never intended as a jumping-off place for planetary missions. At most it would have been (and still could be) a place to do the necessary biomedical spadework and technology research for pushing beyond LEO. Reagan made sure it would be a laboratory, not a shipyard. NASA hoped he didn't mean it, hence the Dual-Keel, but that was never adequately supported, and by 1992 the station was at death's door. Bush the Elder had begun US/Russian cooperation - Clinton accepted Russian invitations, first made c. 1988, to merge Mir-2 and Freedom. Hence Ralpha, hence ISS. Never mind that it's in a difficult orbit or any of the rest - it would not exist were it not for the geopolitical purpose Bush 41 and Clinton gave it. This is what I'm getting at when I talk about recognizing reality. People in Houston may find that working with the Russians chafes almost 20 years after it began, but they are the same people who thought that Bush II really meant it when he said that we were going to go beyond LEO. I said that it wasn't going to happen at the time, and was accused of being partisan. If being able to discern reality from fantasy is partisan, then I'm guilty as charged. Right now, Obama is trying to get back to what Bush II said he wanted to do. Read the January 2004 Vision description. Then read what Obama's White House has put out. Basically, Bush II endorsed more or less what NASA was working on at the time with regards to getting beyond LEO, but with the extra touch of cancelling the Shuttle. What he endorsed was based on work begun under Clinton. Then Mike Griffin got in and opted for Apollo reenactment over technology development and biomedical research. When Bush II didn't rein him in, it was entirely obvious (to me, at least) that he had proposed his Vision merely as an election-year ploy. Never mind that he failed to adequately fund it - even when Dems sought to give NASA more funds. To go beyond LEO, we need to do the necessary spacework. Panel after panel, committee after committee, has said that since the 1960s. The plan, as I understand it, is to spend a few years developing propulsion, power, life support, and other technologies while working to deal with the very real biomedical impacts of long-duration spaceflight. This has begun, though the GOP seems bent on undermining it (more criticizing their own past policies - they've been very schizoid), and we still have politicians on both sides of the aisle who would treat NASA as a jobs program at the expense of its future. It's not embarrassing that we can't do what we did in Apollo days. I don't pine for those days because Apollo was very much a part of its time. Today spaceflight is more international, and less based on motives most people recognize as being important. Cutbacks are not surprising. A slowing of the pace is not shocking, either, given the realities. Reliance on partners is not a stunner when to not do so means no program. We should feel fortunate that we have a manned space program, given the fact that human spaceflight is much less relevant to people than it was in the 1960s and given the economic crisis that began c. 2005. In the meantime, we are exploring the Solar System with spacecraft that are cheap enough that they are much less a political football than human spaceflight has become. The US is the unquestionable leader in this field. Frankly, robotic spaceflight is where it's at. The equivalent of NewSpace companies have been involved with it since the Discovery Program began almost 20 years ago. If we can get past the monster missions that got out of control under Bush - MSL is the prime example - then I think robotic spaceflight will be safe for a long time to come. What we need to be thinking about are new partnerships - this time pairing astronauts with exploring machines. I mean, the Shuttle was a robot during launch and reentry, and automation helped pilots land the Orbiters. This isn't new stuff, any more than the need to technology & biomedical research and to work with other countries is new stuff. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ From: cpgorski at gmail.com Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 13:32:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" To: dsfportree at hotmail.com CC: jameseoberg at comcast.net; davidlrickman at aol.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org; pjp961 at svol.net On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 10:06 AM, David Portree I further submit that I am not partisan, I am American, and I am eager to see our country succeed. Hence my willingness to call a spade a spade. Commendable enough. Next you can work on the notion that the GOP is made up of Americans too, whose motivations are similar (eager to see our nation succeed) even if their methods are radically different. I submit that both parties have made the space program into an expense line-item politically and THAT is the root of the problem. Neither the members of the Democratic nor Republican parties want to be seen as spending money on anything not absolutely necessary right now--unless it's in their district, of course... If a politician can push a seemingly-good but expensive program with long-term benefit past the end of his term, he can be seen as not spending the money. And if the program ultimately fails, he can blame the next guy. So right now we have a couple presidents in a row who don't care about this, each willing to talk big about what we could be doing in twenty years, each knowing full well the Congress won't appropriate the money for them and that they'll be long gone before most of the public sees that nothing ever happened. On the off chance they succeed, they want some Kennedy-esque glory for having 'started' the ball rolling--but for now it's a game of political hot-potato... And THAT is why (Peter) our space program's gotten to an embarrassing place. And I think it has, and I don't think ISS has done much for us in that respect. It's kind of discouraging to compare what we've got with the 'plans for space utilization' from the 1980s, which called for the space station to be a base of operations for all sorts of work, for tugs to be able to bring satellites there for repair (and then redeploy them), and the like... right now we fly to an orbit that's got such an inclination that it costs a ton of fuel just to get there, and an impractical amount more to get from there to anything else (...Moon, satellites, ...), and we were afraid to go anywhere else at all even when we did have the means. So right now we have two guys on a base of Russian location (an orbit that overflies Baikonur) and we have to buy tickets from the Russians to get there, and we talk about the fixed lifespan of the ISS but don't have any plans whatsoever for what to do next (the moon! no, Mars! no, an asteroid!). Yeah, it's a bit embarrassing for the country that went from the first powered flight to walking on the Moon in 66 years to not even be able to fly people to the Moon--*or even low Earth orbit*--42 years later. It's like our national curiosity was sated with Apollo 11, we've been to space and done all that, and now our attention span is so short we're on to something else. Like Twitter. The manned version of Dragon will fix some of this when it comes online--but we'll still need someplace to go once we get into orbit. In the end, I think it's interesting that making our state-of-the-art spacecraft from 1981 reusable, we've removed the impetus to make a more efficient version anywhere along the next three decades... anything that couldn't be done as part of a regular OMDP just wasn't considered. Soyuz has been through a couple iterations in that time, though strictly I know few of the details. Will be interesting to see what pressures drive the continuing development of commercial 'space taxis', to borrow the term. Cheers, --me -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Mon Sep 26 14:41:04 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 12:41:04 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" In-Reply-To: <4E80A234.80908@telenet.be> References: <4E806F72.8060803@telenet.be> ,<4E80A234.80908@telenet.be> Message-ID: Ah, but I pointed out where we were headed back in 2004. I was accused of being partisan, when in fact I was being realistic. I hereby declare, I Told You So. And when I said we should keep the Shuttle around, flying it once a year or so until we had a replacement, I was told the Shuttle had to go ASAP. Over the years people who criticized me when I first raised my concerns have emailed me to tell me I got it right. That they thought I was being partisan and alarmist, but that events were turning out as I had said they would. They were Griffin's fantasies, by the way. Bush failed to rein him in because he didn't give a damn about spaceflight (or much anything else, truth be told). The Vision was an election-year ploy, and more about shutting things down than starting things up. Griffin didn't get it. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 18:03:00 +0200 From: dokter.nuyens at telenet.be To: dsfportree at hotmail.com CC: fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" David, The only point I wanted to make is the simple fact that if you want independent access to space you need your own machine to get there. Now that's something the US is very capable of doing as they proved it during 50 years. This looks like post-Skylab revisited and as a matter of fact, it is even worse because at that time at least they were building something and, yes there were some delays. This is like crying wolf and nobody there when the extent of the damage finally dawns. When I wanted a new job I first got one and after that I quit the first one. I agree with your comments especially Russian access being much cheaper than the Shuttle, but then any access is cheaper than the Shuttle and Bush's fantasies have cost us dearly. Zeger Nuyens On 09/26/2011 04:21 PM, David Portree wrote: Zeger: I don't see it as embarrassing. If we have a partnership, then we can rely on each other. We have done so before, in the aftermath of Columbia. Besides, even when they jack up their prices, access via the Russians is much cheaper than access via Shuttle. The embarrassing thing is that some people in NASA haven't worked out that the world changed 20 years ago. That said, I wish Bush II had not killed Shuttle. A flight a year would have been useful, and would have kept us with an independent resupply/crew exchange capability until we had a replacement in place. During the period when many bought the Bush II plan to replace Shuttle with a moon program (which was actually Griffin's plan, not Bush's, but Bush didn't care, so didn't rein him in - read the January 2004 Vision paper), folks were falling all over themselves to kill Shuttle. Even while Bush II consistently underfunded its replacement. Now that those actions have come home to roost, we need to take stock of where we are and what we have, and acknowledge that we've lived in a fantasy world since 2004. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 14:26:26 +0200 > From: dokter.nuyens at telenet.be > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org > Subject: [FPSPACE] Neil Armstrong in Congressional Testimony: US Space Program in "Embarrassing State" > > Amen to that. > The simple and embarrasing bottomline is that the US payed for most of > the ISS and now they can't get there by themselves. US politicians (Dems > and Reps alike) should do some soul-searching and get their act together > instead of trying to get the most out of it for their own states. The > sad thing is though that without that interest they are just not > interested in space at all. > I think it was Phillip Clark who (a quote I think) said politicians > should have their brains surgically removed, I think it wouldn't make > one tiny bit of difference at all. > > Zeger Nuyens > > > The hearing was (yet more) GOP posturing. They've trotted out Armstrong and Cernan before, and they said the same things. > > Bush shut down the Shuttle, then underfunded its replacement - if that was such a bad thing, why didn't these people speak out before? Like, maybe in 2005 or 2006? > > Besides, we're still building the Shuttle replacement - despite the severe damage done to the economy on Bush's watch, which could be (and has been) used to justify killing discretionary programs (like human spaceflight). So, what do these people have to complain about anyway? Bunch of babies. > > And, as I indicated, reliance on the Russians is not a new thing, nor especially bad. We wouldn't even have a space station if we hadn't let them into the program. We weren't grounded after Columbia because we had access to Russian spacecraft, and Progress vehicles kept ISS from reentering. How we do human spaceflight changed almost 20 years ago. Time these guys worked that out. > > Griffin had a chance to get the Chinese into the program, but he blew it. His great strategy - use them like the Soviets in the 1960s. The trouble is - no one really cares. > > My sense is that heroes like Armstrong and Cernan show their frailties when they let themselves be used in this way. The GOP's use of them tarnishes them, as the GOP has tarnished so much about our country since 2000. It's sad and embarrassing. > > > > David S. F. Portree > > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drwoods at stny.rr.com Mon Sep 26 22:13:03 2011 From: drwoods at stny.rr.com (David R. Woods) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 22:13:03 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] GAMBIT and HEXAGON Message-ID: <4E81312F.7090400@stny.rr.com> Jonathan McDowell's has published his latest Space Report: Number-647. In it is a section devoted to recently released declassified information on the Gambit and Hexagon U.S. reconnaissance satellites. There is also a huge collection of associated PDF files covering history, correspondences, and technical details. The only thing missing are actual high resolution photographs. Those are redacted out whenever they appear in the documents. http://planet4589.org/space/jsr/latest.html KH-7/KH8/KH-9 declassification ------------------------------- The NRO has declassified its film-return satellites GAMBIT and HEXAGON. You may enjoy the images athttp://planet4589.org/jcm/pics/11/gambit/index.html The declassified docs are athttp://planet4589.org/space/docs/nro The declassified documents include: http://planet4589.org/space/docs/nro/gam http://planet4589.org/space/docs/nro/hex http://planet4589.org/space/docs/nro/histories http://planet4589.org/space/docs/nro/other These Space Reports are an excellent source of information, and are available free of charge. People can subscribe/unsubscribe at:http://www.planet4589.org/mailman/listinfo/jsr Dave From cpvick at globalsecurity.org Tue Sep 27 01:00:06 2011 From: cpvick at globalsecurity.org (Charles Vick) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 01:00:06 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] GAMBIT and HEXAGON In-Reply-To: <4E81312F.7090400@stny.rr.com> References: <4E81312F.7090400@stny.rr.com> Message-ID: <001101cc7cd2$53725540$fa56ffc0$@globalsecurity.org> Comment, The KH-7/KH8/KH-9 imagery declassification remains under NGA and the DNI office for consideration control for possible declassification per NRO. Contract proposals have been solicited for image digitizing copying for the public to purchase. Copying would if approved take a year or more to accomplish with the Images of critical middle eastern countries and China remaining off limits. The last reports still indicates this is not a done deal for 2013 through 2016. In reality only KH-9 imagery is in the running for this in the next few years. Declassification of the last of the KH-7 and KH-8 imagery remains very very problematical at best. The intelligence community is very reluctant to let go of its "holy grail{", "crown jewels" imagery the best they ever got. cpvick -----Original Message----- From: fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org [mailto:fpspace-bounces at www.friends-partners.org] On Behalf Of David R. Woods Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 10:13 PM To: fpspace at friends-partners.org Subject: [FPSPACE] GAMBIT and HEXAGON Jonathan McDowell's has published his latest Space Report: Number-647. In it is a section devoted to recently released declassified information on the Gambit and Hexagon U.S. reconnaissance satellites. There is also a huge collection of associated PDF files covering history, correspondences, and technical details. The only thing missing are actual high resolution photographs. Those are redacted out whenever they appear in the documents. http://planet4589.org/space/jsr/latest.html KH-7/KH8/KH-9 declassification ------------------------------- The NRO has declassified its film-return satellites GAMBIT and HEXAGON. You may enjoy the images athttp://planet4589.org/jcm/pics/11/gambit/index.html The declassified docs are athttp://planet4589.org/space/docs/nro The declassified documents include: http://planet4589.org/space/docs/nro/gam http://planet4589.org/space/docs/nro/hex http://planet4589.org/space/docs/nro/histories http://planet4589.org/space/docs/nro/other These Space Reports are an excellent source of information, and are available free of charge. People can subscribe/unsubscribe at:http://www.planet4589.org/mailman/listinfo/jsr Dave _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace From ljk4 at msn.com Tue Sep 27 20:50:51 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:50:51 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] FW: MEDIA TELECONFERENCE: NASA'S MESSENGER Reveals New Details of Planet Mercury In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 16:42:50 -0400 From: Michael.Buckley at JHUAPL.EDU Subject: MEDIA TELECONFERENCE: NASA'S MESSENGER Reveals New Details of Planet Mercury To: MESSENGER-ENEWS-L at LISTSERV.JHUAPL.EDU Sept. 27, 2011 NASA SPACECRAFT REVEALS NEW DETAILS OF PLANET MERCURY Science Journal Has Embargoed Details Until 2 p.m. EDT on Sept. 29. WASHINGTON -- NASA will host a media teleconference at 2 p.m. EDT on Thursday, Sept. 29, to discuss new data and images from the first spacecraft to orbit Mercury. The new findings are reported in a series of seven papers published in a special section of Science magazine on Sept. 30. NASA's MErcury Surface, Space ENvironment, GEochemistry, and Ranging (MESSENGER) spacecraft conducted fifteen laps through the inner solar system for more than six years before achieving the historic orbit insertion on March 18. Briefing participants are:- Ed Graykzeck, MESSENGER program manager, NASA Headquarters, Washington- James Head, III, professor of geological sciences, Brown University- David Blewett, MESSENGER participating scientist and staff scientist, Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory (APL), Laurel, Md.- Patrick Peplowski, staff scientist, APL- Thomas Zurbuchen, professor of space science and aerospace engineering, University of Michigan To participate in the teleconference, reporters must contact Dwayne Brown at dwayne.c.brown at nasa.gov or 202-358-1726, by noon on Sept. 29 for dial-in instructions. Audio of the teleconference will be streamed live at: http://www.nasa.gov/newsaudio Related images and supporting briefing information will be available at: http://www.nasa.gov/messenger -end- MESSENGER (MErcury Surface, Space ENvironment, GEochemistry, and Ranging) is a NASA-sponsored scientific investigation of the planet Mercury and the first space mission designed to orbit the planet closest to the Sun. The MESSENGER spacecraft launched on August 3, 2004, and entered orbit about Mercury on March 17, 2011 (March 18, 2011 UTC), to begin a yearlong study of its target planet. Dr. Sean C. Solomon, of the Carnegie Institution of Washington, leads the mission as Principal Investigator. The Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory built and operates the MESSENGER spacecraft and manages this Discovery-class mission for NASA. You are subscribed to MESSENGER E-News; to unsubscribe, visit http://messenger.jhuapl.edu/enews/enews_unsubscribe.html. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Tue Sep 27 20:52:50 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:52:50 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files Message-ID: http://lunarnetworks.blogspot.com/2011/09/arkansas-lunar-sample-found-packed-away.html Friday, September 23, 2011 Arkansas Apollo 17 commemorative lunar sample found packed away among Bill Clinton's files Diane Alter A long lost, highly valuable moon rock, bought back by Apollo 17 has been found in former U.S. president Bill Clinton's files. The rock, missing for 30 years, was one of 50 presented to each state after the 1972 space mission. It was presented to Clinton's predecessor Gov. David Pryor in 1976. The rock hung in the governor's office that was later occupied by Clinton. The rock was apparently packed away with Clinton's memorabilia after it fell off its plaque. The moon rock is estimated to be worth $10 million. NASA says that few of the rocks, which were encased in acrylic and mounted on a plaque with the intended recipient's flag, can be located. The rock has been missing since 1980. Reports are that the rock fell off the plaque and was mistakenly packed away with gubernatorial papers belonging to Clinton. The archivist knew exactly what is was when he stumbled upon it. Three months after Apollo 17 returned home, then-president Richard Nixon ordered that fragments of the rocks carried home by astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmidt be distributed among 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its territories. When presented to the states as gifts, they became property of the state they were donated to. Only 60 can be located. The rest are said to have been stolen or lost. The rock is currently safely stored in a library safe. Posted by Joel Raupe at 10:53 PM -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Wed Sep 28 09:47:39 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 07:47:39 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't think that this story is substantially correct. Even where it is correct, it is probably not important. The fragments distributed to heads of state and governors are very small. They originated in one rock, which Cernan and Schmitt collected for the purpose. The dollar value of these slivers of the moon is debatable, but if one were a fragment of a meteorite that originated on the moon, it would be worth nowhere near $10 million. I think that the "only 60 can be located" figure is suspect. I wish I knew the author's source. It would have been nice if she had noted that these moon rocks are tiny, taken from a randomly collected breccia with a mass of a kilogram or less, and do not count as part of the 400 or so kilograms stored at Houston, San Antonio, and (if my memory is correct) White Sands. There is a real story concerning the lunar samples, and that is that thousands - typically very small, but taken together a sizable quantity - have been loaned out all over the world to researchers and then inadequately tracked. Some fraction of those are probably lost, and some fraction of those lost probably constitute unique material. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ From: ljk4 at msn.com To: fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:52:50 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files http://lunarnetworks.blogspot.com/2011/09/arkansas-lunar-sample-found-packed-away.html Friday, September 23, 2011 Arkansas Apollo 17 commemorative lunar sample found packed away among Bill Clinton's files Diane Alter A long lost, highly valuable moon rock, bought back by Apollo 17 has been found in former U.S. president Bill Clinton's files. The rock, missing for 30 years, was one of 50 presented to each state after the 1972 space mission. It was presented to Clinton's predecessor Gov. David Pryor in 1976. The rock hung in the governor's office that was later occupied by Clinton. The rock was apparently packed away with Clinton's memorabilia after it fell off its plaque. The moon rock is estimated to be worth $10 million. NASA says that few of the rocks, which were encased in acrylic and mounted on a plaque with the intended recipient's flag, can be located. The rock has been missing since 1980. Reports are that the rock fell off the plaque and was mistakenly packed away with gubernatorial papers belonging to Clinton. The archivist knew exactly what is was when he stumbled upon it. Three months after Apollo 17 returned home, then-president Richard Nixon ordered that fragments of the rocks carried home by astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmidt be distributed among 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its territories. When presented to the states as gifts, they became property of the state they were donated to. Only 60 can be located. The rest are said to have been stolen or lost. The rock is currently safely stored in a library safe. Posted by Joel Raupe at 10:53 PM _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert at collectspace.com Wed Sep 28 11:23:05 2011 From: robert at collectspace.com (Robert Pearlman) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 10:23:05 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C8DD4B9-2C09-4CA0-8F3A-D0577D1B55A2@collectspace.com> David, That particular version of the Arkansas goodwill moon rock story does have a few issues, but it is more or less correct. Foreign nations, states and U.S. properties received two lunar sample gifts: Where Today are the Apollo 11 Lunar Sample Displays http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_apollo11.html Where Today are the Apollo 17 Goodwill Moon Rocks http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_goodwill.html Among just the U.S. state-gifted moon rocks, 15 of the 50 Apollo 11 gifts and 10 of the 50 Apollo gifts are still missing (and by missing I mean not found, they may be in fact missing/stolen but they may just be where no one doing the searching has thought to look yet). The majority of foreign-gifted samples have yet to be found. I would personally peg the dollar-value on these samples, if they could be sold legally, between $1 and $3 million, but $5 million was the asking price by the Miami businessman who "purchased" Honduras' sample, which kicked off this whole search. As for the loaned samples for study, my understanding is that NASA keeps a much more exact (though not public) accounting of where they are. They didn't track the goodwill samples because once given away, they were no longer U.S. government property. -- Robert Pearlman, Editor collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts http://www.collectspace.com/ Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE On Sep 28, 2011, at 8:47 AM, David Portree wrote: > I don't think that this story is substantially correct. Even where it is correct, it is probably not important. > > The fragments distributed to heads of state and governors are very small. They originated in one rock, which Cernan and Schmitt collected for the purpose. The dollar value of these slivers of the moon is debatable, but if one were a fragment of a meteorite that originated on the moon, it would be worth nowhere near $10 million. > > I think that the "only 60 can be located" figure is suspect. I wish I knew the author's source. > > It would have been nice if she had noted that these moon rocks are tiny, taken from a randomly collected breccia with a mass of a kilogram or less, and do not count as part of the 400 or so kilograms stored at Houston, San Antonio, and (if my memory is correct) White Sands. > > There is a real story concerning the lunar samples, and that is that thousands - typically very small, but taken together a sizable quantity - have been loaned out all over the world to researchers and then inadequately tracked. Some fraction of those are probably lost, and some fraction of those lost probably constitute unique material. > > David S. F. Portree > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > dportree at usgs.gov > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > From: ljk4 at msn.com > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:52:50 -0400 > Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > http://lunarnetworks.blogspot.com/2011/09/arkansas-lunar-sample-found-packed-away.html > > Friday, September 23, 2011 > > > Arkansas Apollo 17 commemorative lunar sample found packed away among Bill Clinton's files > > Diane Alter > > A long lost, highly valuable moon rock, bought back by Apollo 17 has been found in former U.S. president Bill Clinton's files. > > The rock, missing for 30 years, was one of 50 presented to each state after the 1972 space mission. It was presented to Clinton's predecessor Gov. David Pryor in 1976. The rock hung in the governor's office that was later occupied by Clinton. The rock was apparently packed away with Clinton's memorabilia after it fell off its plaque. > > The moon rock is estimated to be worth $10 million. NASA says that few of the rocks, which were encased in acrylic and mounted on a plaque with the intended recipient's flag, can be located. > > The rock has been missing since 1980. Reports are that the rock fell off the plaque and was mistakenly packed away with gubernatorial papers belonging to Clinton. The archivist knew exactly what is was when he stumbled upon it. > > Three months after Apollo 17 returned home, then-president Richard Nixon ordered that fragments of the rocks carried home by astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmidt be distributed among 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its territories. When presented to the states as gifts, they became property of the state they were donated to. Only 60 can be located. The rest are said to have been stolen or lost. > > The rock is currently safely stored in a library safe. > Posted by Joel Raupe at 10:53 PM > > > > _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.orghttp://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjp961 at svol.net Wed Sep 28 18:36:01 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 18:36:01 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Chinese space station module launch may be tomorrow Message-ID: <4e83a16d.0776960a.1d59.2a19@mx.google.com> >From the UK Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/8793466/China-prepares-to-launch-sp ace-laboratory.html Also photographs of the launch rocket and model of the space station module with its solar panels deployed with above article URL link Wednesday 28 September 2011 China prepares to launch space laboratory China will take the first step to having its own space station tomorrow, launching the Tiangong-1, or "Heavenly Palace" space laboratory. By Malcolm Moore , Shanghai 8:41AM BST 28 Sep 2011 The unmanned, 8.5 ton Tiangong-1 will help to test the technologies that China plans to use in its space station, which is scheduled for completion by 2020. It will also be used as a docking target for the unmanned Shenzhou 8 space craft which is expected to launch by the end of this year. If that mission succeeds, Chinese astronauts could fly to Tiangong-1 next year, dock, and live aboard it. If China can demonstrate it has a functioning docking system, it could also begin to dock with the International Space Station. China has held up its ambitious space programme as a symbol of its growing technological expertise. The module's launch arrives just before China's National Day celebrations on October 1. The mission has been delayed by a few weeks because of "over 170 technical modifications" that had to be made at the launch site in the Gobi desert, according to the director of the site. As China steps up its space programme, in competition with India and Japan, the United States and Russia have both scaled back their ambition. The US says it will not test a new space rocket to carry out manned missions until 2017 and Russia has said manned mission are no longer a priority. Meanwhile, China became only the third country to send an astronaut on a spacewalk in 2008 and is planning an unmanned moon landing for next year. It hopes to send a man to the moon by 2020, roughly five decades after the US managed the feat. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjp961 at svol.net Wed Sep 28 18:45:30 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 18:45:30 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Japanese spy satellite launch reported Message-ID: <4e83a39f.a499ec0a.3919.14f1@mx.google.com> >From the UK Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/japan/8789078/Japan-launches- spy-satellite-to-monitor-North-Korea.html Japan launches spy satellite to monitor North Korea A new Japanese spy satellite has started beaming back images from North Korea as Tokyo steps up monitoring of its unpredictable neighbour. By Julian Ryall, Tokyo 12:01PM BST 26 Sep 2011 The images include pictures of North Korea's suspected missile launch sites and nuclear facilities. The classified payload was launched from the Tanegashima Space Centre, on a remote island off southern Japan, on Friday and is orbiting at a height of 300 miles. The government's Cabinet Satellite Intelligence Centre and the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency, which launched the satellite atop one of its 174-foot-tall H-2A rockets, have declined to reveal details of the mission. The vehicle is the fourth "Information Gathering Satellite" to be launched since March 2003. The first satellite was put into orbit after North Korea fired a missile over Japan and into the Pacific Ocean in 1998. Ignoring international pressure, North Korea fired a Taepodong-2 missile - with an estimated range of 4,100 miles - in April 2009 and has carried out regular tests of short-range weapons since. According to experts, the ?322.7 million satellite, built by Mitsubishi Electric Corp., is fitted with optical cameras and a telescope to provide images to the Japanese intelligence and defence authorities. The satellite is able to identify targets as small as 23 inches. Two of the earlier satellites have reached the end of their operational lives, but working with the surviving vehicle the new satellite will be tasked with providing advance warning of an imminent missile launch. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert_law at yahoo.com Wed Sep 28 20:00:46 2011 From: robert_law at yahoo.com (Robert Law) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 17:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Chinese space station update Message-ID: <1317254446.63165.YahooMailNeo@web31701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Fulling?is now underway ? CCTV has?announced?the?launch?time ?from 9:16pm to 9:30pm ?Beijing?time first manned?launch?in 2012 will have only one astronaut who will?manually?atempt randeveous and docking the next shenzu flight will ocur in one month's time Robert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From davidlrickman at aol.com Thu Sep 29 00:09:54 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (David L. Rickman) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:09:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Tiangong Launch Time Message-ID: <8CE4C74C6975846-3C8-C6F4D@webmail-d052.sysops.aol.com> FPSpacers, CCTV is announcing that Tiangong 1 is scheduled to launch between 9:16 and 9:31 pm EDT. Best, David L. Rickman Follow my progress as I recreate the Soviet Lunniy Korabl spaceship in 1:5 scale at http://lunniykorabl.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Thu Sep 29 00:21:37 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 22:21:37 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files In-Reply-To: <8C8DD4B9-2C09-4CA0-8F3A-D0577D1B55A2@collectspace.com> References: , <8C8DD4B9-2C09-4CA0-8F3A-D0577D1B55A2@collectspace.com> Message-ID: Robert: I have it from a good source that there are significant issues with the research sample accounting, and an effort is being made to call samples back - especially those that have been loaned out for years and are overseas. The loaned research samples are almost all small - thin sections and the like - but they occur in significant numbers - "thousands" was the word my source used, though I wouldn't quote that figure (it seems excessive to me). Not only lunar samples are involved - also meteorites - but the lunar samples have generated the most concern. How big are the gift samples? I was given to understand that they are very small - 10 grams or so. The educator samples I've seen are just a pinch of dust embedded in a clear plastic disk. I know that some of those have disappeared - one was lost in a fire in a UPS van, though the sample curation staffer who told me about that incident had his doubts. I suppose that the inflated dollar value would have something to do with the Apollo association? I guess talk of multi-million-dollar samples being lost makes them seem more important than they are. I've never heard a scientist begrudge the political gesture of the gift samples. A few years ago I had the opportunity to visit with the samples in Houston during their semi-annual security check, when they unpack a portion of the rocks, cores, and other samples and check them against their records. I had to dress up in a bunny suit, but it was worth it. The nitrogen cabinets were full of rocks. I was impressed by their many colors, and also by the glassy coating on many of the rocks formed by microscopic meteoroid impacts. It wasn't too hard to see what part of the rocks had been below the surface when they were collected. They didn't look earthly, and I don't think that was a subjective impression. The message here is, the lost samples amount to a tiny fraction of the total. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files From: robert at collectspace.com Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 10:23:05 -0500 CC: ljk4 at msn.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu To: dsfportree at hotmail.com David, That particular version of the Arkansas goodwill moon rock story does have a few issues, but it is more or less correct. Foreign nations, states and U.S. properties received two lunar sample gifts: Where Today are the Apollo 11 Lunar Sample Displays http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_apollo11.html Where Today are the Apollo 17 Goodwill Moon Rocks http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_goodwill.html Among just the U.S. state-gifted moon rocks, 15 of the 50 Apollo 11 gifts and 10 of the 50 Apollo gifts are still missing (and by missing I mean not found, they may be in fact missing/stolen but they may just be where no one doing the searching has thought to look yet). The majority of foreign-gifted samples have yet to be found. I would personally peg the dollar-value on these samples, if they could be sold legally, between $1 and $3 million, but $5 million was the asking price by the Miami businessman who "purchased" Honduras' sample, which kicked off this whole search. As for the loaned samples for study, my understanding is that NASA keeps a much more exact (though not public) accounting of where they are. They didn't track the goodwill samples because once given away, they were no longer U.S. government property. -- Robert Pearlman, EditorcollectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts http://www.collectspace.com/Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACEFacebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE On Sep 28, 2011, at 8:47 AM, David Portree wrote:I don't think that this story is substantially correct. Even where it is correct, it is probably not important. The fragments distributed to heads of state and governors are very small. They originated in one rock, which Cernan and Schmitt collected for the purpose. The dollar value of these slivers of the moon is debatable, but if one were a fragment of a meteorite that originated on the moon, it would be worth nowhere near $10 million. I think that the "only 60 can be located" figure is suspect. I wish I knew the author's source. It would have been nice if she had noted that these moon rocks are tiny, taken from a randomly collected breccia with a mass of a kilogram or less, and do not count as part of the 400 or so kilograms stored at Houston, San Antonio, and (if my memory is correct) White Sands. There is a real story concerning the lunar samples, and that is that thousands - typically very small, but taken together a sizable quantity - have been loaned out all over the world to researchers and then inadequately tracked. Some fraction of those are probably lost, and some fraction of those lost probably constitute unique material. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ From: ljk4 at msn.com To: fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:52:50 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files http://lunarnetworks.blogspot.com/2011/09/arkansas-lunar-sample-found-packed-away.html Friday, September 23, 2011 Arkansas Apollo 17 commemorative lunar sample found packed away among Bill Clinton's filesDiane Alter A long lost, highly valuable moon rock, bought back by Apollo 17 has been found in former U.S. president Bill Clinton's files. The rock, missing for 30 years, was one of 50 presented to each state after the 1972 space mission. It was presented to Clinton's predecessor Gov. David Pryor in 1976. The rock hung in the governor's office that was later occupied by Clinton. The rock was apparently packed away with Clinton's memorabilia after it fell off its plaque. The moon rock is estimated to be worth $10 million. NASA says that few of the rocks, which were encased in acrylic and mounted on a plaque with the intended recipient's flag, can be located. The rock has been missing since 1980. Reports are that the rock fell off the plaque and was mistakenly packed away with gubernatorial papers belonging to Clinton. The archivist knew exactly what is was when he stumbled upon it. Three months after Apollo 17 returned home, then-president Richard Nixon ordered that fragments of the rocks carried home by astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmidt be distributed among 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its territories. When presented to the states as gifts, they became property of the state they were donated to. Only 60 can be located. The rest are said to have been stolen or lost. The rock is currently safely stored in a library safe.Posted by Joel Raupe at 10:53 PM _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.orghttp://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace_______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert at collectspace.com Thu Sep 29 01:26:12 2011 From: robert at collectspace.com (Robert Pearlman) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:26:12 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files In-Reply-To: References: , <8C8DD4B9-2C09-4CA0-8F3A-D0577D1B55A2@collectspace.com> Message-ID: <2D5D2629-8F08-4EDF-B2DD-F8A57A60C641@collectspace.com> The Apollo 17 gifts are 1.142 grams each, all cut from the same rock. The Apollo 11 gifts are 0.05 grams each, in the form of four small pieces. It is generally accepted that the dollar value of any Apollo-recovered moon rock, assuming one could be legally auctioned, would be much more than the going rate for lunar meteorites or even Soviet-returned samples because of the history they represent. Given the prices paid for moon dust-stained artifacts, it is a reasonable estimation to place a rock (of any size) at seven figures, especially if the first to be sold. -- Robert Pearlman, Editor collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts http://www.collectspace.com/ Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE On Sep 28, 2011, at 11:21 PM, David Portree wrote: > Robert: > > I have it from a good source that there are significant issues with the research sample accounting, and an effort is being made to call samples back - especially those that have been loaned out for years and are overseas. The loaned research samples are almost all small - thin sections and the like - but they occur in significant numbers - "thousands" was the word my source used, though I wouldn't quote that figure (it seems excessive to me). Not only lunar samples are involved - also meteorites - but the lunar samples have generated the most concern. > > How big are the gift samples? I was given to understand that they are very small - 10 grams or so. > > The educator samples I've seen are just a pinch of dust embedded in a clear plastic disk. I know that some of those have disappeared - one was lost in a fire in a UPS van, though the sample curation staffer who told me about that incident had his doubts. > > I suppose that the inflated dollar value would have something to do with the Apollo association? I guess talk of multi-million-dollar samples being lost makes them seem more important than they are. I've never heard a scientist begrudge the political gesture of the gift samples. > > A few years ago I had the opportunity to visit with the samples in Houston during their semi-annual security check, when they unpack a portion of the rocks, cores, and other samples and check them against their records. I had to dress up in a bunny suit, but it was worth it. The nitrogen cabinets were full of rocks. I was impressed by their many colors, and also by the glassy coating on many of the rocks formed by microscopic meteoroid impacts. It wasn't too hard to see what part of the rocks had been below the surface when they were collected. They didn't look earthly, and I don't think that was a subjective impression. The message here is, the lost samples amount to a tiny fraction of the total. > > David S. F. Portree > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > dportree at usgs.gov > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > From: robert at collectspace.com > Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 10:23:05 -0500 > CC: ljk4 at msn.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > To: dsfportree at hotmail.com > > David, > > That particular version of the Arkansas goodwill moon rock story does have a few issues, but it is more or less correct. > > Foreign nations, states and U.S. properties received two lunar sample gifts: > > Where Today are the Apollo 11 Lunar Sample Displays > http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_apollo11.html > > Where Today are the Apollo 17 Goodwill Moon Rocks > http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_goodwill.html > > Among just the U.S. state-gifted moon rocks, 15 of the 50 Apollo 11 gifts and 10 of the 50 Apollo gifts are still missing (and by missing I mean not found, they may be in fact missing/stolen but they may just be where no one doing the searching has thought to look yet). The majority of foreign-gifted samples have yet to be found. > > I would personally peg the dollar-value on these samples, if they could be sold legally, between $1 and $3 million, but $5 million was the asking price by the Miami businessman who "purchased" Honduras' sample, which kicked off this whole search. > > As for the loaned samples for study, my understanding is that NASA keeps a much more exact (though not public) accounting of where they are. They didn't track the goodwill samples because once given away, they were no longer U.S. government property. > > -- > Robert Pearlman, Editor > collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts > http://www.collectspace.com/ > Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE > Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE > > On Sep 28, 2011, at 8:47 AM, David Portree wrote: > > I don't think that this story is substantially correct. Even where it is correct, it is probably not important. > > The fragments distributed to heads of state and governors are very small. They originated in one rock, which Cernan and Schmitt collected for the purpose. The dollar value of these slivers of the moon is debatable, but if one were a fragment of a meteorite that originated on the moon, it would be worth nowhere near $10 million. > > I think that the "only 60 can be located" figure is suspect. I wish I knew the author's source. > > It would have been nice if she had noted that these moon rocks are tiny, taken from a randomly collected breccia with a mass of a kilogram or less, and do not count as part of the 400 or so kilograms stored at Houston, San Antonio, and (if my memory is correct) White Sands. > > There is a real story concerning the lunar samples, and that is that thousands - typically very small, but taken together a sizable quantity - have been loaned out all over the world to researchers and then inadequately tracked. Some fraction of those are probably lost, and some fraction of those lost probably constitute unique material. > > David S. F. Portree > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > dportree at usgs.gov > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > From: ljk4 at msn.com > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:52:50 -0400 > Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > http://lunarnetworks.blogspot.com/2011/09/arkansas-lunar-sample-found-packed-away.html > > Friday, September 23, 2011 > > > Arkansas Apollo 17 commemorative lunar sample found packed away among Bill Clinton's files > > Diane Alter > > A long lost, highly valuable moon rock, bought back by Apollo 17 has been found in former U.S. president Bill Clinton's files. > > The rock, missing for 30 years, was one of 50 presented to each state after the 1972 space mission. It was presented to Clinton's predecessor Gov. David Pryor in 1976. The rock hung in the governor's office that was later occupied by Clinton. The rock was apparently packed away with Clinton's memorabilia after it fell off its plaque. > > The moon rock is estimated to be worth $10 million. NASA says that few of the rocks, which were encased in acrylic and mounted on a plaque with the intended recipient's flag, can be located. > > The rock has been missing since 1980. Reports are that the rock fell off the plaque and was mistakenly packed away with gubernatorial papers belonging to Clinton. The archivist knew exactly what is was when he stumbled upon it. > > Three months after Apollo 17 returned home, then-president Richard Nixon ordered that fragments of the rocks carried home by astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmidt be distributed among 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its territories. When presented to the states as gifts, they became property of the state they were donated to. Only 60 can be located. The rest are said to have been stolen or lost. > > The rock is currently safely stored in a library safe. > Posted by Joel Raupe at 10:53 PM > > > > _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.orghttp://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > _______________________________________________ > FPSPACE mailing list > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > From dsfportree at hotmail.com Thu Sep 29 10:19:37 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 08:19:37 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files In-Reply-To: <2D5D2629-8F08-4EDF-B2DD-F8A57A60C641@collectspace.com> References: , <8C8DD4B9-2C09-4CA0-8F3A-D0577D1B55A2@collectspace.com> , <2D5D2629-8F08-4EDF-B2DD-F8A57A60C641@collectspace.com> Message-ID: Robert: Thanks for that info. Those are tiny, tiny samples! No wonder they get lost. I bet the educator samples I've handled amount to more material than that. So, if we scraped all these samples together in one place, they'd amount to perhaps to maybe one-fifth of a kilogram? So, only about as much material as would fit in the palm of my hand is missing out of more than 800 pounds returned to Earth. Doesn't seem to be worth much fuss. I have no reading on the missing researcher samples. The hope is that they are not in fact missing and will turn up as they are called back, or so I am given to understand. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > From: robert at collectspace.com > Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:26:12 -0500 > CC: fpspace at friends-partners.org; ljk4 at msn.com > To: dsfportree at hotmail.com > > The Apollo 17 gifts are 1.142 grams each, all cut from the same rock. The Apollo 11 gifts are 0.05 grams each, in the form of four small pieces. > > It is generally accepted that the dollar value of any Apollo-recovered moon rock, assuming one could be legally auctioned, would be much more than the going rate for lunar meteorites or even Soviet-returned samples because of the history they represent. Given the prices paid for moon dust-stained artifacts, it is a reasonable estimation to place a rock (of any size) at seven figures, especially if the first to be sold. > > -- > Robert Pearlman, Editor > collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts > http://www.collectspace.com/ > Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE > Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE > > On Sep 28, 2011, at 11:21 PM, David Portree wrote: > > > Robert: > > > > I have it from a good source that there are significant issues with the research sample accounting, and an effort is being made to call samples back - especially those that have been loaned out for years and are overseas. The loaned research samples are almost all small - thin sections and the like - but they occur in significant numbers - "thousands" was the word my source used, though I wouldn't quote that figure (it seems excessive to me). Not only lunar samples are involved - also meteorites - but the lunar samples have generated the most concern. > > > > How big are the gift samples? I was given to understand that they are very small - 10 grams or so. > > > > The educator samples I've seen are just a pinch of dust embedded in a clear plastic disk. I know that some of those have disappeared - one was lost in a fire in a UPS van, though the sample curation staffer who told me about that incident had his doubts. > > > > I suppose that the inflated dollar value would have something to do with the Apollo association? I guess talk of multi-million-dollar samples being lost makes them seem more important than they are. I've never heard a scientist begrudge the political gesture of the gift samples. > > > > A few years ago I had the opportunity to visit with the samples in Houston during their semi-annual security check, when they unpack a portion of the rocks, cores, and other samples and check them against their records. I had to dress up in a bunny suit, but it was worth it. The nitrogen cabinets were full of rocks. I was impressed by their many colors, and also by the glassy coating on many of the rocks formed by microscopic meteoroid impacts. It wasn't too hard to see what part of the rocks had been below the surface when they were collected. They didn't look earthly, and I don't think that was a subjective impression. The message here is, the lost samples amount to a tiny fraction of the total. > > > > David S. F. Portree > > > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > > dportree at usgs.gov > > > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > From: robert at collectspace.com > > Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 10:23:05 -0500 > > CC: ljk4 at msn.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > > To: dsfportree at hotmail.com > > > > David, > > > > That particular version of the Arkansas goodwill moon rock story does have a few issues, but it is more or less correct. > > > > Foreign nations, states and U.S. properties received two lunar sample gifts: > > > > Where Today are the Apollo 11 Lunar Sample Displays > > http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_apollo11.html > > > > Where Today are the Apollo 17 Goodwill Moon Rocks > > http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_goodwill.html > > > > Among just the U.S. state-gifted moon rocks, 15 of the 50 Apollo 11 gifts and 10 of the 50 Apollo gifts are still missing (and by missing I mean not found, they may be in fact missing/stolen but they may just be where no one doing the searching has thought to look yet). The majority of foreign-gifted samples have yet to be found. > > > > I would personally peg the dollar-value on these samples, if they could be sold legally, between $1 and $3 million, but $5 million was the asking price by the Miami businessman who "purchased" Honduras' sample, which kicked off this whole search. > > > > As for the loaned samples for study, my understanding is that NASA keeps a much more exact (though not public) accounting of where they are. They didn't track the goodwill samples because once given away, they were no longer U.S. government property. > > > > -- > > Robert Pearlman, Editor > > collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts > > http://www.collectspace.com/ > > Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE > > Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE > > > > On Sep 28, 2011, at 8:47 AM, David Portree wrote: > > > > I don't think that this story is substantially correct. Even where it is correct, it is probably not important. > > > > The fragments distributed to heads of state and governors are very small. They originated in one rock, which Cernan and Schmitt collected for the purpose. The dollar value of these slivers of the moon is debatable, but if one were a fragment of a meteorite that originated on the moon, it would be worth nowhere near $10 million. > > > > I think that the "only 60 can be located" figure is suspect. I wish I knew the author's source. > > > > It would have been nice if she had noted that these moon rocks are tiny, taken from a randomly collected breccia with a mass of a kilogram or less, and do not count as part of the 400 or so kilograms stored at Houston, San Antonio, and (if my memory is correct) White Sands. > > > > There is a real story concerning the lunar samples, and that is that thousands - typically very small, but taken together a sizable quantity - have been loaned out all over the world to researchers and then inadequately tracked. Some fraction of those are probably lost, and some fraction of those lost probably constitute unique material. > > > > David S. F. Portree > > > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > > dportree at usgs.gov > > > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > > > > > > From: ljk4 at msn.com > > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > > Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:52:50 -0400 > > Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > > > http://lunarnetworks.blogspot.com/2011/09/arkansas-lunar-sample-found-packed-away.html > > > > Friday, September 23, 2011 > > > > > > Arkansas Apollo 17 commemorative lunar sample found packed away among Bill Clinton's files > > > > Diane Alter > > > > A long lost, highly valuable moon rock, bought back by Apollo 17 has been found in former U.S. president Bill Clinton's files. > > > > The rock, missing for 30 years, was one of 50 presented to each state after the 1972 space mission. It was presented to Clinton's predecessor Gov. David Pryor in 1976. The rock hung in the governor's office that was later occupied by Clinton. The rock was apparently packed away with Clinton's memorabilia after it fell off its plaque. > > > > The moon rock is estimated to be worth $10 million. NASA says that few of the rocks, which were encased in acrylic and mounted on a plaque with the intended recipient's flag, can be located. > > > > The rock has been missing since 1980. Reports are that the rock fell off the plaque and was mistakenly packed away with gubernatorial papers belonging to Clinton. The archivist knew exactly what is was when he stumbled upon it. > > > > Three months after Apollo 17 returned home, then-president Richard Nixon ordered that fragments of the rocks carried home by astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmidt be distributed among 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its territories. When presented to the states as gifts, they became property of the state they were donated to. Only 60 can be located. The rest are said to have been stolen or lost. > > > > The rock is currently safely stored in a library safe. > > Posted by Joel Raupe at 10:53 PM > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.orghttp://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > _______________________________________________ > > FPSPACE mailing list > > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert at collectspace.com Thu Sep 29 10:36:22 2011 From: robert at collectspace.com (Robert Pearlman) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 09:36:22 -0500 Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files In-Reply-To: References: , <8C8DD4B9-2C09-4CA0-8F3A-D0577D1B55A2@collectspace.com> , <2D5D2629-8F08-4EDF-B2DD-F8A57A60C641@collectspace.com> Message-ID: <0679DC7C-14FD-4FCA-B130-299B68506E31@collectspace.com> David, I don't think it's the physical quantity of material that is important here. Yes, the large majority of Apollo-returned samples are safe in vaults in Texas and New Mexico, but most of those samples will never be seen by the public. And while NASA loans out a good number of educational and museum displays, the latter using much larger samples, they do not reach out to all the nations that were included with the goodwill gifts. The active search is primarily being conducted by students, an activity that gives them experience in a number of areas of research. That alone, I would argue, merits the effort. And I can share from personal experience that may of the nations and states that have recovered or relocated their moon rocks as a result of this effort have been very appreciative to do so, and those who have proudly displayed their goodwill moon rocks have been grateful for the additional attention being drawn to their exhibits. - Robert -- Robert Pearlman, Editor collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts http://www.collectspace.com/ Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE On Sep 29, 2011, at 9:19 AM, David Portree wrote: > Robert: > > Thanks for that info. Those are tiny, tiny samples! No wonder they get lost. I bet the educator samples I've handled amount to more material than that. > > So, if we scraped all these samples together in one place, they'd amount to perhaps to maybe one-fifth of a kilogram? > > So, only about as much material as would fit in the palm of my hand is missing out of more than 800 pounds returned to Earth. Doesn't seem to be worth much fuss. > > I have no reading on the missing researcher samples. The hope is that they are not in fact missing and will turn up as they are called back, or so I am given to understand. > > David S. F. Portree > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > dportree at usgs.gov > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > From: robert at collectspace.com > > Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:26:12 -0500 > > CC: fpspace at friends-partners.org; ljk4 at msn.com > > To: dsfportree at hotmail.com > > > > The Apollo 17 gifts are 1.142 grams each, all cut from the same rock. The Apollo 11 gifts are 0.05 grams each, in the form of four small pieces. > > > > It is generally accepted that the dollar value of any Apollo-recovered moon rock, assuming one could be legally auctioned, would be much more than the going rate for lunar meteorites or even Soviet-returned samples because of the history they represent. Given the prices paid for moon dust-stained artifacts, it is a reasonable estimation to place a rock (of any size) at seven figures, especially if the first to be sold. > > > > -- > > Robert Pearlman, Editor > > collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts > > http://www.collectspace.com/ > > Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE > > Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE > > > > On Sep 28, 2011, at 11:21 PM, David Portree wrote: > > > > > Robert: > > > > > > I have it from a good source that there are significant issues with the research sample accounting, and an effort is being made to call samples back - especially those that have been loaned out for years and are overseas. The loaned research samples are almost all small - thin sections and the like - but they occur in significant numbers - "thousands" was the word my source used, though I wouldn't quote that figure (it seems excessive to me). Not only lunar samples are involved - also meteorites - but the lunar samples have generated the most concern. > > > > > > How big are the gift samples? I was given to understand that they are very small - 10 grams or so. > > > > > > The educator samples I've seen are just a pinch of dust embedded in a clear plastic disk. I know that some of those have disappeared - one was lost in a fire in a UPS van, though the sample curation staffer who told me about that incident had his doubts. > > > > > > I suppose that the inflated dollar value would have something to do with the Apollo association? I guess talk of multi-million-dollar samples being lost makes them seem more important than they are. I've never heard a scientist begrudge the political gesture of the gift samples. > > > > > > A few years ago I had the opportunity to visit with the samples in Houston during their semi-annual security check, when they unpack a portion of the rocks, cores, and other samples and check them against their records. I had to dress up in a bunny suit, but it was worth it. The nitrogen cabinets were full of rocks. I was impressed by their many colors, and also by the glassy coating on many of the rocks formed by microscopic meteoroid impacts. It wasn't too hard to see what part of the rocks had been below the surface when they were collected. They didn't look earthly, and I don't think that was a subjective impression. The message here is, the lost samples amount to a tiny fraction of the total. > > > > > > David S. F. Portree > > > > > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > > > dportree at usgs.gov > > > > > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > > From: robert at collectspace.com > > > Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 10:23:05 -0500 > > > CC: ljk4 at msn.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > > > To: dsfportree at hotmail.com > > > > > > David, > > > > > > That particular version of the Arkansas goodwill moon rock story does have a few issues, but it is more or less correct. > > > > > > Foreign nations, states and U.S. properties received two lunar sample gifts: > > > > > > Where Today are the Apollo 11 Lunar Sample Displays > > > http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_apollo11.html > > > > > > Where Today are the Apollo 17 Goodwill Moon Rocks > > > http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_goodwill.html > > > > > > Among just the U.S. state-gifted moon rocks, 15 of the 50 Apollo 11 gifts and 10 of the 50 Apollo gifts are still missing (and by missing I mean not found, they may be in fact missing/stolen but they may just be where no one doing the searching has thought to look yet). The majority of foreign-gifted samples have yet to be found. > > > > > > I would personally peg the dollar-value on these samples, if they could be sold legally, between $1 and $3 million, but $5 million was the asking price by the Miami businessman who "purchased" Honduras' sample, which kicked off this whole search. > > > > > > As for the loaned samples for study, my understanding is that NASA keeps a much more exact (though not public) accounting of where they are. They didn't track the goodwill samples because once given away, they were no longer U.S. government property. > > > > > > -- > > > Robert Pearlman, Editor > > > collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts > > > http://www.collectspace.com/ > > > Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE > > > Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE > > > > > > On Sep 28, 2011, at 8:47 AM, David Portree wrote: > > > > > > I don't think that this story is substantially correct. Even where it is correct, it is probably not important. > > > > > > The fragments distributed to heads of state and governors are very small. They originated in one rock, which Cernan and Schmitt collected for the purpose. The dollar value of these slivers of the moon is debatable, but if one were a fragment of a meteorite that originated on the moon, it would be worth nowhere near $10 million. > > > > > > I think that the "only 60 can be located" figure is suspect. I wish I knew the author's source. > > > > > > It would have been nice if she had noted that these moon rocks are tiny, taken from a randomly collected breccia with a mass of a kilogram or less, and do not count as part of the 400 or so kilograms stored at Houston, San Antonio, and (if my memory is correct) White Sands. > > > > > > There is a real story concerning the lunar samples, and that is that thousands - typically very small, but taken together a sizable quantity - have been loaned out all over the world to researchers and then inadequately tracked. Some fraction of those are probably lost, and some fraction of those lost probably constitute unique material. > > > > > > David S. F. Portree > > > > > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > > > dportree at usgs.gov > > > > > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: ljk4 at msn.com > > > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > > > Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:52:50 -0400 > > > Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > > > > > http://lunarnetworks.blogspot.com/2011/09/arkansas-lunar-sample-found-packed-away.html > > > > > > Friday, September 23, 2011 > > > > > > > > > Arkansas Apollo 17 commemorative lunar sample found packed away among Bill Clinton's files > > > > > > Diane Alter > > > > > > A long lost, highly valuable moon rock, bought back by Apollo 17 has been found in former U.S. president Bill Clinton's files. > > > > > > The rock, missing for 30 years, was one of 50 presented to each state after the 1972 space mission. It was presented to Clinton's predecessor Gov. David Pryor in 1976. The rock hung in the governor's office that was later occupied by Clinton. The rock was apparently packed away with Clinton's memorabilia after it fell off its plaque. > > > > > > The moon rock is estimated to be worth $10 million. NASA says that few of the rocks, which were encased in acrylic and mounted on a plaque with the intended recipient's flag, can be located. > > > > > > The rock has been missing since 1980. Reports are that the rock fell off the plaque and was mistakenly packed away with gubernatorial papers belonging to Clinton. The archivist knew exactly what is was when he stumbled upon it. > > > > > > Three months after Apollo 17 returned home, then-president Richard Nixon ordered that fragments of the rocks carried home by astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmidt be distributed among 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its territories. When presented to the states as gifts, they became property of the state they were donated to. Only 60 can be located. The rest are said to have been stolen or lost. > > > > > > The rock is currently safely stored in a library safe. > > > Posted by Joel Raupe at 10:53 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.orghttp://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > > _______________________________________________ > > > FPSPACE mailing list > > > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > > > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dsfportree at hotmail.com Thu Sep 29 10:56:17 2011 From: dsfportree at hotmail.com (David Portree) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 08:56:17 -0600 Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files In-Reply-To: <0679DC7C-14FD-4FCA-B130-299B68506E31@collectspace.com> References: , <8C8DD4B9-2C09-4CA0-8F3A-D0577D1B55A2@collectspace.com> , <2D5D2629-8F08-4EDF-B2DD-F8A57A60C641@collectspace.com> , <0679DC7C-14FD-4FCA-B130-299B68506E31@collectspace.com> Message-ID: Robert: It's an interesting situation. I tend to come at it from the science side, but it's heartening that people become enthusiastic about finding their missing samples and displaying them. Thank you for the additional details. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files From: robert at collectspace.com Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 09:36:22 -0500 CC: fpspace at friends-partners.org; ljk4 at msn.com To: dsfportree at hotmail.com David, I don't think it's the physical quantity of material that is important here. Yes, the large majority of Apollo-returned samples are safe in vaults in Texas and New Mexico, but most of those samples will never be seen by the public. And while NASA loans out a good number of educational and museum displays, the latter using much larger samples, they do not reach out to all the nations that were included with the goodwill gifts. The active search is primarily being conducted by students, an activity that gives them experience in a number of areas of research. That alone, I would argue, merits the effort. And I can share from personal experience that may of the nations and states that have recovered or relocated their moon rocks as a result of this effort have been very appreciative to do so, and those who have proudly displayed their goodwill moon rocks have been grateful for the additional attention being drawn to their exhibits. - Robert -- Robert Pearlman, EditorcollectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts http://www.collectspace.com/Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACEFacebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE On Sep 29, 2011, at 9:19 AM, David Portree wrote:Robert: Thanks for that info. Those are tiny, tiny samples! No wonder they get lost. I bet the educator samples I've handled amount to more material than that. So, if we scraped all these samples together in one place, they'd amount to perhaps to maybe one-fifth of a kilogram? So, only about as much material as would fit in the palm of my hand is missing out of more than 800 pounds returned to Earth. Doesn't seem to be worth much fuss. I have no reading on the missing researcher samples. The hope is that they are not in fact missing and will turn up as they are called back, or so I am given to understand. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > From: robert at collectspace.com > Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:26:12 -0500 > CC: fpspace at friends-partners.org; ljk4 at msn.com > To: dsfportree at hotmail.com > > The Apollo 17 gifts are 1.142 grams each, all cut from the same rock. The Apollo 11 gifts are 0.05 grams each, in the form of four small pieces. > > It is generally accepted that the dollar value of any Apollo-recovered moon rock, assuming one could be legally auctioned, would be much more than the going rate for lunar meteorites or even Soviet-returned samples because of the history they represent. Given the prices paid for moon dust-stained artifacts, it is a reasonable estimation to place a rock (of any size) at seven figures, especially if the first to be sold. > > -- > Robert Pearlman, Editor > collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts > http://www.collectspace.com/ > Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE > Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE > > On Sep 28, 2011, at 11:21 PM, David Portree wrote: > > > Robert: > > > > I have it from a good source that there are significant issues with the research sample accounting, and an effort is being made to call samples back - especially those that have been loaned out for years and are overseas. The loaned research samples are almost all small - thin sections and the like - but they occur in significant numbers - "thousands" was the word my source used, though I wouldn't quote that figure (it seems excessive to me). Not only lunar samples are involved - also meteorites - but the lunar samples have generated the most concern. > > > > How big are the gift samples? I was given to understand that they are very small - 10 grams or so. > > > > The educator samples I've seen are just a pinch of dust embedded in a clear plastic disk. I know that some of those have disappeared - one was lost in a fire in a UPS van, though the sample curation staffer who told me about that incident had his doubts. > > > > I suppose that the inflated dollar value would have something to do with the Apollo association? I guess talk of multi-million-dollar samples being lost makes them seem more important than they are. I've never heard a scientist begrudge the political gesture of the gift samples. > > > > A few years ago I had the opportunity to visit with the samples in Houston during their semi-annual security check, when they unpack a portion of the rocks, cores, and other samples and check them against their records. I had to dress up in a bunny suit, but it was worth it. The nitrogen cabinets were full of rocks. I was impressed by their many colors, and also by the glassy coating on many of the rocks formed by microscopic meteoroid impacts. It wasn't too hard to see what part of the rocks had been below the surface when they were collected. They didn't look earthly, and I don't think that was a subjective impression. The message here is, the lost samples amount to a tiny fraction of the total. > > > > David S. F. Portree > > > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > > dportree at usgs.gov > > > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > From: robert at collectspace.com > > Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 10:23:05 -0500 > > CC: ljk4 at msn.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > > To: dsfportree at hotmail.com > > > > David, > > > > That particular version of the Arkansas goodwill moon rock story does have a few issues, but it is more or less correct. > > > > Foreign nations, states and U.S. properties received two lunar sample gifts: > > > > Where Today are the Apollo 11 Lunar Sample Displays > > http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_apollo11.html > > > > Where Today are the Apollo 17 Goodwill Moon Rocks > > http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_goodwill.html > > > > Among just the U.S. state-gifted moon rocks, 15 of the 50 Apollo 11 gifts and 10 of the 50 Apollo gifts are still missing (and by missing I mean not found, they may be in fact missing/stolen but they may just be where no one doing the searching has thought to look yet). The majority of foreign-gifted samples have yet to be found. > > > > I would personally peg the dollar-value on these samples, if they could be sold legally, between $1 and $3 million, but $5 million was the asking price by the Miami businessman who "purchased" Honduras' sample, which kicked off this whole search. > > > > As for the loaned samples for study, my understanding is that NASA keeps a much more exact (though not public) accounting of where they are. They didn't track the goodwill samples because once given away, they were no longer U.S. government property. > > > > -- > > Robert Pearlman, Editor > > collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts > > http://www.collectspace.com/ > > Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE > > Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE > > > > On Sep 28, 2011, at 8:47 AM, David Portree wrote: > > > > I don't think that this story is substantially correct. Even where it is correct, it is probably not important. > > > > The fragments distributed to heads of state and governors are very small. They originated in one rock, which Cernan and Schmitt collected for the purpose. The dollar value of these slivers of the moon is debatable, but if one were a fragment of a meteorite that originated on the moon, it would be worth nowhere near $10 million. > > > > I think that the "only 60 can be located" figure is suspect. I wish I knew the author's source. > > > > It would have been nice if she had noted that these moon rocks are tiny, taken from a randomly collected breccia with a mass of a kilogram or less, and do not count as part of the 400 or so kilograms stored at Houston, San Antonio, and (if my memory is correct) White Sands. > > > > There is a real story concerning the lunar samples, and that is that thousands - typically very small, but taken together a sizable quantity - have been loaned out all over the world to researchers and then inadequately tracked. Some fraction of those are probably lost, and some fraction of those lost probably constitute unique material. > > > > David S. F. Portree > > > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > > dportree at usgs.gov > > > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > > > > > > From: ljk4 at msn.com > > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > > Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:52:50 -0400 > > Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > > > http://lunarnetworks.blogspot.com/2011/09/arkansas-lunar-sample-found-packed-away.html > > > > Friday, September 23, 2011 > > > > > > Arkansas Apollo 17 commemorative lunar sample found packed away among Bill Clinton's files > > > > Diane Alter > > > > A long lost, highly valuable moon rock, bought back by Apollo 17 has been found in former U.S. president Bill Clinton's files. > > > > The rock, missing for 30 years, was one of 50 presented to each state after the 1972 space mission. It was presented to Clinton's predecessor Gov. David Pryor in 1976. The rock hung in the governor's office that was later occupied by Clinton. The rock was apparently packed away with Clinton's memorabilia after it fell off its plaque. > > > > The moon rock is estimated to be worth $10 million. NASA says that few of the rocks, which were encased in acrylic and mounted on a plaque with the intended recipient's flag, can be located. > > > > The rock has been missing since 1980. Reports are that the rock fell off the plaque and was mistakenly packed away with gubernatorial papers belonging to Clinton. The archivist knew exactly what is was when he stumbled upon it. > > > > Three months after Apollo 17 returned home, then-president Richard Nixon ordered that fragments of the rocks carried home by astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmidt be distributed among 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its territories. When presented to the states as gifts, they became property of the state they were donated to. Only 60 can be located. The rest are said to have been stolen or lost. > > > > The rock is currently safely stored in a library safe. > > Posted by Joel Raupe at 10:53 PM > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.orghttp://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > _______________________________________________ > > FPSPACE mailing list > > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjp961 at svol.net Thu Sep 29 11:07:51 2011 From: pjp961 at svol.net (Peter Pesavento) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 11:07:51 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Chinese space station module launched successfully Message-ID: <4e8489e4.f154ec0a.5ae2.7b88@mx.google.com> >From the Associated Press, via Yahoo http://news.yahoo.com/china-launches-module-space-station-134040793.html It also quotes our own fpspacer, Charles Vick! China launches module for space station By CHRISTOPHER BODEEN - Associated Press | AP - 5 mins ago BEIJING (AP) - China launched an experimental module to lay the groundwork for a future space station on Thursday, underscoring its ambitions to become a major space power over the coming decade. The box car-sized Tiangong-1 module was shot into space from the Jiuquan launch center on the edge of the Gobi Desert aboard a Long March 2FT1 rocket. It is to move into an orbit 217 miles (350 kilometers) above the Earth and conduct surveys of Chinese farmland using special cameras, along with experiments involving growing crystals in zero gravity. China then plans to launch an unmanned Shenzhou 8 spacecraft to practice remote-controlled docking maneuvers with the module, possibly within the next few weeks. Two more missions, at least one of them manned, are to meet up with it next year for further practice, with astronauts staying for up to one month. The 8.5-ton module, whose name translates as "Heavenly Palace-1," is to stay aloft for two years, after which two other experimental modules are to be launched for additional tests before the actual station is launched in three sections between 2020 and 2022. "This is a significant test. We've never done such a thing before," Lu Jinrong, the launch center's chief engineer, was quoted as saying by the official Xinhua News Agency. The space station, which is yet to be formally named, is the most ambitious project in China's exploration of space, which also calls for landing on the moon, possibly with astronauts. In terms of technology, the launch of the Tiangong-1 places China about where the U.S. was in the 1960s during the Gemini program. While it is planning fewer launches than the U.S. carried out, the Chinese program progresses farther than the U.S. did with each launch it undertakes, said Joan Johnson-Freese, a space expert at the U.S. Naval War College in Rhode Island. "China has the advantage, 40-plus years later, of not having to start at the bottom of the learning curve on its human spaceflight program," Johnson-Freese said. China's authoritarian, centralized political system also offers the advantage of freedom from political wrangles over funding and clearly defines the program's long-term goals within Soviet-style five-year plans. China launched its first manned flight in 2003, joining Russia and the United States as the only countries to launch humans into orbit and generating huge amounts of national pride for the Communist government. However, habitual secrecy and the space program's close links with the military have inhibited cooperation with other nations' space programs - including the International Space Station. At about 60 tons when completed, the Chinese station will be considerably smaller than the 16-nation ISS, which is expected to continue operating through 2028. China applied repeatedly to join the ISS, but was rebuffed largely on objections from the U.S., prompting it to adopt a go-it-alone strategy. While the program has proceeded with no apparent major problems, the launch of the Tiangong-1 module was delayed for one year for technical reasons, and then rescheduled again after a Long March 2C rocket similar to the Long March 2F failed to reach orbit in August. The incident with the rocket was investigated and problems were reportedly resolved. Although experts see no explicit military function for the Chinese space station, the country's other space-based military programs, including the destruction of a defunct Chinese satellite with a rocket in 2007, have caused alarm overseas. "It is a nation doing its own thing saying, 'OK, we can do what you did for our own country separate from cooperation, on Chinese terms,'" said Charles Vick, an expert on the Chinese space program with Globalsecurity.org, which tracks military and security news. Numerous challenges lie ahead, including the attempt to dock remotely - U.S. astronauts handled the maneuver from aboard their spacecraft. The Long March 5 rocket that is being prepared to launch the 20-ton modules for the actual space station also remains untested. Still, Beijing is expected to press ahead whatever the difficulties as long as it continues to result in international prestige, domestic credibility, technological advancement, and economic spin-offs, Johnson-Freese and Vick said. "Basically, they will get what they want regardless of how long or what it takes for the authoritarian state to accomplish the assigned tasks," Vick said. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drwoods at stny.rr.com Thu Sep 29 20:49:47 2011 From: drwoods at stny.rr.com (David R. Woods) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 20:49:47 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] China will host the first unmanned satellite docking Message-ID: <4E85122B.4090008@stny.rr.com> http://www.vesti.ru/videos?vid=366345 China has announced that by mid-November it will host the first in its history, an unmanned satellite docking. Thus China will begin immediately preparing to create its own space station. Her plan to launch in 2020. And on Thursday will be running machine named "Tien Kung", ITAR-TASS. The module must have worked for 2 years. During this time, with three ships dock. Two of them are manned. Cosmonaut has already been formed - the first time it included women. From davidlrickman at aol.com Thu Sep 29 21:11:59 2011 From: davidlrickman at aol.com (David L. Rickman) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 21:11:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files In-Reply-To: References: , <8C8DD4B9-2C09-4CA0-8F3A-D0577D1B55A2@collectspace.com>, <2D5D2629-8F08-4EDF-B2DD-F8A57A60C641@collectspace.com>, <0679DC7C-14FD-4FCA-B130-299B68506E31@collectspace.com> Message-ID: <8CE4D2516886022-1CD8-B54E@webmail-d088.sysops.aol.com> One thing I haven't seen announced in this forum is that the sample that the governors of the 50 states received their sample attached to a plaque which also had that states flag on it. The sample fell off, and was found in its rightful box labelled, "State Flags". Best, David L. Rickman Follow my progress as I recreate the Soviet Lunniy Korabl spaceship in 1:5 scale at http://lunniykorabl.blogspot.com -----Original Message----- From: David Portree To: robert Cc: fpspace Sent: Thu, Sep 29, 2011 5:05 pm Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files Robert: It's an interesting situation. I tend to come at it from the science side, but it's heartening that people become enthusiastic about finding their missing samples and displaying them. Thank you for the additional details. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files From: robert at collectspace.com Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 09:36:22 -0500 CC: fpspace at friends-partners.org; ljk4 at msn.com To: dsfportree at hotmail.com David, I don't think it's the physical quantity of material that is important here. Yes, the large majority of Apollo-returned samples are safe in vaults in Texas and New Mexico, but most of those samples will never be seen by the public. And while NASA loans out a good number of educational and museum displays, the latter using much larger samples, they do not reach out to all the nations that were included with the goodwill gifts. The active search is primarily being conducted by students, an activity that gives them experience in a number of areas of research. That alone, I would argue, merits the effort. And I can share from personal experience that may of the nations and states that have recovered or relocated their moon rocks as a result of this effort have been very appreciative to do so, and those who have proudly displayed their goodwill moon rocks have been grateful for the additional attention being drawn to their exhibits. - Robert -- Robert Pearlman, Editor collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts http://www.collectspace.com/ Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE On Sep 29, 2011, at 9:19 AM, David Portree wrote: Robert: Thanks for that info. Those are tiny, tiny samples! No wonder they get lost. I bet the educator samples I've handled amount to more material than that. So, if we scraped all these samples together in one place, they'd amount to perhaps to maybe one-fifth of a kilogram? So, only about as much material as would fit in the palm of my hand is missing out of more than 800 pounds returned to Earth. Doesn't seem to be worth much fuss. I have no reading on the missing researcher samples. The hope is that they are not in fact missing and will turn up as they are called back, or so I am given to understand. David S. F. Portree dsfportree at hotmail.com dportree at usgs.gov http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > From: robert at collectspace.com > Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 00:26:12 -0500 > CC: fpspace at friends-partners.org; ljk4 at msn.com > To: dsfportree at hotmail.com > > The Apollo 17 gifts are 1.142 grams each, all cut from the same rock. The Apollo 11 gifts are 0.05 grams each, in the form of four small pieces. > > It is generally accepted that the dollar value of any Apollo-recovered moon rock, assuming one could be legally auctioned, would be much more than the going rate for lunar meteorites or even Soviet-returned samples because of the history they represent. Given the prices paid for moon dust-stained artifacts, it is a reasonable estimation to place a rock (of any size) at seven figures, especially if the first to be sold. > > -- > Robert Pearlman, Editor > collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts > http://www.collectspace.com/ > Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE > Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE > > On Sep 28, 2011, at 11:21 PM, David Portree wrote: > > > Robert: > > > > I have it from a good source that there are significant issues with the research sample accounting, and an effort is being made to call samples back - especially those that have been loaned out for years and are overseas. The loaned research samples are almost all small - thin sections and the like - but they occur in significant numbers - "thousands" was the word my source used, though I wouldn't quote that figure (it seems excessive to me). Not only lunar samples are involved - also meteorites - but the lunar samples have generated the most concern. > > > > How big are the gift samples? I was given to understand that they are very small - 10 grams or so. > > > > The educator samples I've seen are just a pinch of dust embedded in a clear plastic disk. I know that some of those have disappeared - one was lost in a fire in a UPS van, though the sample curation staffer who told me about that incident had his doubts. > > > > I suppose that the inflated dollar value would have something to do with the Apollo association? I guess talk of multi-million-dollar samples being lost makes them seem more important than they are. I've never heard a scientist begrudge the political gesture of the gift samples. > > > > A few years ago I had the opportunity to visit with the samples in Houston during their semi-annual security check, when they unpack a portion of the rocks, cores, and other samples and check them against their records. I had to dress up in a bunny suit, but it was worth it. The nitrogen cabinets were full of rocks. I was impressed by their many colors, and also by the glassy coating on many of the rocks formed by microscopic meteoroid impacts. It wasn't too hard to see what part of the rocks had been below the surface when they were collected. They didn't look earthly, and I don't think that was a subjective impression. The message here is, the lost samples amount to a tiny fraction of the total. > > > > David S. F. Portree > > > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > > dportree at usgs.gov > > > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > From: robert at collectspace.com > > Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 10:23:05 -0500 > > CC: ljk4 at msn.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > > To: dsfportree at hotmail.com > > > > David, > > > > That particular version of the Arkansas goodwill moon rock story does have a few issues, but it is more or less correct. > > > > Foreign nations, states and U.S. properties received two lunar sample gifts: > > > > Where Today are the Apollo 11 Lunar Sample Displays > > http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_apollo11.html > > > > Where Today are the Apollo 17 Goodwill Moon Rocks > > http://www.collectspace.com/resources/moonrocks_goodwill.html > > > > Among just the U.S. state-gifted moon rocks, 15 of the 50 Apollo 11 gifts and 10 of the 50 Apollo gifts are still missing (and by missing I mean not found, they may be in fact missing/stolen but they may just be where no one doing the searching has thought to look yet). The majority of foreign-gifted samples have yet to be found. > > > > I would personally peg the dollar-value on these samples, if they could be sold legally, between $1 and $3 million, but $5 million was the asking price by the Miami businessman who "purchased" Honduras' sample, which kicked off this whole search. > > > > As for the loaned samples for study, my understanding is that NASA keeps a much more exact (though not public) accounting of where they are. They didn't track the goodwill samples because once given away, they were no longer U.S. government property. > > > > -- > > Robert Pearlman, Editor > > collectSPACE - The Source for Space History & Artifacts > > http://www.collectspace.com/ > > Twitter: @robertpearlman | @collectSPACE > > Facebook: http://facebook.com/collectSPACE > > > > On Sep 28, 2011, at 8:47 AM, David Portree wrote: > > > > I don't think that this story is substantially correct. Even where it is correct, it is probably not important. > > > > The fragments distributed to heads of state and governors are very small. They originated in one rock, which Cernan and Schmitt collected for the purpose. The dollar value of these slivers of the moon is debatable, but if one were a fragment of a meteorite that originated on the moon, it would be worth nowhere near $10 million. > > > > I think that the "only 60 can be located" figure is suspect. I wish I knew the author's source. > > > > It would have been nice if she had noted that these moon rocks are tiny, taken from a randomly collected breccia with a mass of a kilogram or less, and do not count as part of the 400 or so kilograms stored at Houston, San Antonio, and (if my memory is correct) White Sands. > > > > There is a real story concerning the lunar samples, and that is that thousands - typically very small, but taken together a sizable quantity - have been loaned out all over the world to researchers and then inadequately tracked. Some fraction of those are probably lost, and some fraction of those lost probably constitute unique material. > > > > David S. F. Portree > > > > dsfportree at hotmail.com > > dportree at usgs.gov > > > > http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ > > > > http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ > > > > > > > > > > From: ljk4 at msn.com > > To: fpspace at friends-partners.org; hastro-l at listserv.wvu.edu > > Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 20:52:50 -0400 > > Subject: [FPSPACE] Apollo 17 lunar sample found among Bill Clinton's files > > > > http://lunarnetworks.blogspot.com/2011/09/arkansas-lunar-sample-found-packed-away.html > > > > Friday, September 23, 2011 > > > > > > Arkansas Apollo 17 commemorative lunar sample found packed away among Bill Clinton's files > > > > Diane Alter > > > > A long lost, highly valuable moon rock, bought back by Apollo 17 has been found in former U.S. president Bill Clinton's files. > > > > The rock, missing for 30 years, was one of 50 presented to each state after the 1972 space mission. It was presented to Clinton's predecessor Gov. David Pryor in 1976. The rock hung in the governor's office that was later occupied by Clinton. The rock was apparently packed away with Clinton's memorabilia after it fell off its plaque. > > > > The moon rock is estimated to be worth $10 million. NASA says that few of the rocks, which were encased in acrylic and mounted on a plaque with the intended recipient's flag, can be located. > > > > The rock has been missing since 1980. Reports are that the rock fell off the plaque and was mistakenly packed away with gubernatorial papers belonging to Clinton. The archivist knew exactly what is was when he stumbled upon it. > > > > Three months after Apollo 17 returned home, then-president Richard Nixon ordered that fragments of the rocks carried home by astronauts Eugene Cernan and Harrison Schmidt be distributed among 135 foreign heads of state, the 50 U.S. states and its territories. When presented to the states as gifts, they became property of the state they were donated to. Only 60 can be located. The rest are said to have been stolen or lost. > > > > The rock is currently safely stored in a library safe. > > Posted by Joel Raupe at 10:53 PM > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.orghttp://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > _______________________________________________ > > FPSPACE mailing list > > FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org > > http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace > > > > > _______________________________________________ FPSPACE mailing list FPSPACE at www.friends-partners.org http://www.friends-partners.org/mailman/listinfo/fpspace -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pao.ulivi at gmail.com Fri Sep 30 01:18:32 2011 From: pao.ulivi at gmail.com (Paolo Ulivi) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 07:18:32 +0200 Subject: [FPSPACE] Chinese space station objectives Message-ID: just wondering: did the Chinese ever discuss the use of their space station (the modular one, not Tiangong)? microgravity research (do they need such a large station)? Earth observation? experience in long-duration flights? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ljk4 at msn.com Fri Sep 30 06:36:06 2011 From: ljk4 at msn.com (LARRY KLAES ) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 10:36:06 +0000 Subject: [FPSPACE] Fwd: Mars Express discovers water supersaturation in the Martian atmosphere; Hubble: Galaxy caught blowing bubbles Message-ID: ---------- Sent from AT&T Wireless using Windows Live Hotmail -----Original Message----- From: SciTech.editorial at esa.int Sent: 9/30/2011 8:51:54 AM To: ljk4 at msn.com Subject: Mars Express discovers water supersaturation in the Martian atmosphere; Hubble: Galaxy caught blowing bubbles MISSION NEWS AS OF FRIDAY 30 SEPTEMBER 2011 + ESA ORBITER DISCOVERS WATER SUPERSATURATION IN THE MARTIAN ATMOSPHERE New analysis of data sent back by the SPICAM spectrometer on board ESA's Mars Express spacecraft has revealed for the first time that the planet's atmosphere is supersaturated with water vapour. This surprising discovery has major implications for understanding the Martian water cycle and the historical evolution of the atmosphere. http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=49342 + GALAXY CAUGHT BLOWING BUBBLES [HEIC1114] Hubble's famous images of galaxies typically show elegant spirals or soft-edged ellipses. But these forms are only representative of large galaxies. Smaller galaxies like the dwarf irregular galaxy Holmberg II come in many shapes and types that are harder to classify. The most recently released image from the Hubble Space Telescope captures this galaxy's indistinct shape, which is punctuated by huge glowing bubbles of gas. http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=49361 =================================================== KEEP IN TOUCH + SCITECH RSS Subscribe to SciTech's RSS (Really Simple Syndication) feed to get the latest updates delivered directly to your desktop. http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=37599 + SCITECH SCREENSAVER Don't forget to download the SciTech Screensaver a multi-facetted application that allows you to keep abreast of status reports, news and announcements of events taking place at ESA Science. http://sci.esa.int/jump.cfm?oid=34651 =================================================== To change your subscription options, or unsubscribe at any time, follow the link here: http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/subscribe/ Please contact us through the SciTech Website: http://sci.esa.int =================================================== ================================================================================================ This message and any attachments are intended for the use of the addressee or addressees only. The unauthorised disclosure, use, dissemination or copying (either in whole or in part) of its content is not permitted. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender and delete it from your system. Emails can be altered and their integrity cannot be guaranteed by the sender. Please consider the environment before printing this email. ================================================================================================= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thomsona at flash.net Fri Sep 30 08:39:43 2011 From: thomsona at flash.net (Allen Thomson) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 05:39:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [FPSPACE] Wenchang and typhoons Message-ID: <1317386383.10611.YahooMailClassic@web80204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hopefully the new spaceport and theme park are going to be sturdily designed; the launch pads seem to be close to shore. OTOH, the situation is not unlike KSC, which has gotten along with similar weather circumstances. http://blogs.voanews.com/breaking-news/2011/09/29/deadly-typhoon-strikes-southern-chinese-island/ "Typhoon Nesat struck the southern Chinese island of Hainan Thursday afternoon, after pounding Hong Kong with heavy winds and rains earlier in the day. "Forecasters say the storm hit Wenchang city with sustained winds up to 150 kilometers an hour, making it the strongest typhoon to hit China this year. Xinhua news agency said almost 58,000 people were evacuated from low-lying areas ahead of Hainan's arrival." ??? From cdomashnev at acm.org Fri Sep 30 11:54:13 2011 From: cdomashnev at acm.org (Constantine Domashnev) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 11:54:13 -0400 Subject: [FPSPACE] Chinese space station module launched successfully In-Reply-To: <4e8489e4.f154ec0a.5ae2.7b88@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <81EDD484574B48189EDED142511082F7@Tosha> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-15123830 30 September 2011 Last updated at 08:44 ET 'America the Beautiful' accompanies China rocket launch China's state TV accompanied coverage of the historic launch of the country's first space laboratory with a patriotic US song, America the Beautiful. ...