[FPSPACE] Apollo and Luna Radios - did Luna-15 really interfere with Apollo-11, and did this happen on other occasion?

Thu Nov 19 09:32:53 EST 2009

Dear FPSPACErs!

This is something for you. Please read the e-mail correspondence below (start at the bottom) and see what you think. Did Soviet spacecraft interfere with Apollo comms? What were the facts behind the worry that Luna-15 would interfere with Apollo-11? Any insights, fact, ideas!

Best Wishes

Sven 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jay Gallentine 
To: Don P. Mitchell 
Cc: 'Sven Grahn' 
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: Apollo and Luna Radios

Hello Gents! Yes indeed, this is a very interesting issue! 

Perhaps Chris Kraft was all worked up over nothing?

I figured the Americans were worried about Luna 15 because of concern over the orbits crossing, or the landing site, or something like that. But Chris Kraft was VERY insistent that the ONLY reason he worried about Luna 15 was because of the communication frequency. Here's a few nuggets from the interview:

"I knew that they were about to send Luna 15 to the Moon, as we were preparing for Apollo 11, and I knew that I was very unhappy about that because the situation was that they always used our communications to get their data back! Which was illegal by the way! They were not supposed to be on that frequency! But they were! And they were always messin’ up our communications when we were flying around the Earth!"

And this:
"we were all concerned that they would be communicating near or on our voice frequencies. And that that could cause a lot of interference. And frankly we had had that many times."

And this:
"I mean they knew that their communications were illegal. And they knew that they were on our frequencies. On or near!"

I really don't know anything about radio, so I figured there must be some reason that only specific frequencies are used for space flight - the size of the wave is optimal, or something. I don't think the Soviets would deliberately try to interfere with communications.

With regard to the specific frequency, Mr. Kraft said this:
"They were at two hundred and thirty-seven. And they should never’ve been there! According to international law, they shouldn’t have been there but they didn’t give a damn about international law. That’s the frequency they operated at so they stayed there!"

Now, Kraft is 85, so should he be expected to remember the exact frequency after all this time?

Thanks to both of you for offering your thoughts on this. I can't thank the two of you enough for your excellent web sites, which I referenced for 'Ambassadors'.

I'm sure we'll be in touch!
Jay Gallentine

On Nov 17, 2009, at 12:13 PM, Don P. Mitchell wrote:

  I agree with Sven.  The Soviets used 183.6/102 MHz for their Luna missions
  since the very beginning with Luna-1.  If something worked, they tended to
  stick with it and not re-engineering their systems.  I've never come across
  any report of them using 200+ MHz, which would have required building new
  non-standard antennas and electronics.  Really not their style.

  I do not believe they would willingly try to jam the Apollo radio signals.
  That's something maybe the KGB might dream up and try with their own
  equipment, but the engineers in the space program would never have agreed to
  do something dishonorable like that.  I believe they respected the American
  space program and the bravery of astronauts of all nations.  They're really
  quite emotional about things like that.

  There is a history of the Americans making a fuss about radio frequencies
  for propaganda purposes.  When sputnik was launched, it used 20 and 40 MHz.
  The US denounced them at IGY conference for not using 108 MHz (the Vanguard
  frequency), and thus making it difficult for them to track.  There was also
  talked about the illegality of using the frequencies without getting
  permission from international regulatory agencies.  I'm sure for the
  Soviets, all this complaining went in one ear and out the other.

   -- Don

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Sven Grahn [mailto:svengrahn at telia.com] 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:33 AM
  To: Jay Gallentine
  Cc: Don P. Mitchell
  Subject: Re: Apollo and Luna Radios

  Jay,

  Thanks for your message. This indeed is an intriguing issue. I have wondere 
  about this incident for years and have never really been able to come up 
  with a reason for the american worry about interefrence. The figure 
  mentioned for the transmission frequency for Luna 15 has been 115 MHz. This 
  number was given by Aviation Week back in the days when it happened. A 
  german space tracker with good connections in the ELINT community gave the 
  number 115.441 MHz. In each case it is a strange frequency never mentioned 
  by anyone for any other purpose. The VHF uplink for the Luna series was 
  101.9 MHz (revealed recently by the Russians) and with a turnaround ratio of

  9/5 the downlink was 183.6 MHz. There sure are antennas on Luna-15 that were

  intended for the 101.9/183.6 MHz system. Of course they may have transmitted

  a signal on 115.441 MHz or used that as a back.up uo-link.

  In any case, people (myself, Jodrell Bank and others) picked up the 183.6 
  MHz signals from Luna 16, 20 and 24, so that is a confirmed frequency.

  As to 237 MHz, are you absolutely sure it was 237 MHz? Please check again. 
  The freqeuncy was not used by any Soviet spacecraft that I know of and was 
  not an Apollo frequency, as far as I know. Apollo used VHF/AM between the 
  Lunar Module and the Command Module on 259.7 MHz and 296.8 MHz. These 
  frequencies were used back on Mercury and Gemini and are still used by the 
  Space Shuttle during ascent. 237.0 MHz was a telemetry frequency for the 
  Skylab orbital workshop. Apollo 5 and 6 used 237.8 MHz, but it was never 
  used around the Moon as far as I know.

  As to the statement by Kraft that the Siviets always used Apollo 
  frequencies: I am very surprised. I had always the impressin that radio 
  frequencies used by the two space powers were far apart.

  All in all, this is fascinating stuff that you tell me. I wish there was 
  some written statement to be found about this frequency conflict. Maybe a 
  FOIA request may reveal something. That is easier for a U.S. national to 
  file than an alien like me.

  I send a copy of this e-mail to Don Mitchell, a very knowledgeable person on

  these matters (check out www.mentallandscape.com and you will see why).

  Best Wishes

  Sven

  Mr Sven Grahn
  Rattviksvagen 44
  SE-192 71 Sollentuna
  Sweden
  Phone:  +46 8 7541904
  Mobile: +46 70 3443844
  Skype: sven.grahn1
  E-mail: svengrahn at bahnhof.se
  Web: www.svengrahn.pp.se
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Jay Gallentine" <jay at firingroom.com>
  To: "Sven Grahn" <svengrahn at telia.com>
  Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 3:30 PM
  Subject: Apollo and Luna Radios

    Hello Sven,

    I've begun writing my second book on unmanned space exploration, and  an 

    interesting issue has come up regarding radio transmission  frequencies.

    As I'm sure you know, around the time of Apollo 11, Chris Kraft became 

    very worried that Luna 15's communications would interfere with  Apollo's.

    I interviewed Kraft, who told me over and over that the Soviets always 

    used the Apollo radio frequencies, which (in his wording) was  'illegal'. 

    "They were not supposed to be on that frequency," he said.  "They were at 

    two hundred and thirty-seven."

    Now, I don't know much about radio, but I immediately thought of a 

    question. What was it about a particular frequency, that made the US  and 

    the USSR both want to use it? Are certain frequencies optimal for  use in 

    space? What is it that makes them optimal for space use?

    I figured if anyone knew about this stuff, it would be Sven!

    Many thanks,

    Jay Gallentine

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