[FPSPACE] Any input?

Sat Jul 4 10:59:42 EDT 2009

Dear Ed,

Thanks for your comments. 

It is clear that the secrecy doctrine has descended over this stuff to a
large degree from the Russian side as I have been directly told where
certain historical records are concerned. In spite of this much the same
applies to declassified records in this country. What the US president was
told and what the intelligence community felt was going to happen has
essentially been cleaned out as the internal intelligence community TS/sci
documents only declassifying some but not all of the known "product user
community documents". The Nixon files have been cleansed by the vacuum
cleaner with essentially nothing being there. In spite of only the "product
user community documents" are being declassified and the remaining internal
community "holy grail" TS/sci documents being sealed away for ever some
information has indeed been let go. 

It has revealed that the 5L mission was very much to be like the US
Apollo-10 mission flown unmanned and not a two launch affair as expected in
two different configurations by the U. S. intelligence community. One
Intelligence community mission configuration pushed by CIA as a two N1
launch configuration mission while Dr. Sheldon reflected openly on a Soyuz,
N1 mission configuration expectations that were conceivably possible given
the known hardware. Too much was lost on the 5L and 3L mission data
gathering by the community that would have to be re-reviewed to settle some
issues for the community as I have been directly told by those still alive
that studied the internal documentation years ago that is clear but it ant
going to happen ever. Here I am reminded of what 007 once said "Every now
and then a bloody revolution is a healthy thing" smiling tong and cheek wise
no doubt to clean the brown stuff out but never mind it ant going to happen.

Equally interesting is the Soviet side collision with themselves in late
1968 of what the ministers demanded as opposed to the bottom line limits on
what was in the hardware pipe line that could be brought up to flight status
that controlled the stuff, ministers be dammed. One must pay close attention
to what the ministers intent was verses what the hardware in the pipe line
confined them to in their choices as well as what US intelligence
expectations were as opposed to what was observed. 

Yes there was indeed some unusual activity at the cosmodrome late in the
lunar window of December 1968 as documented in the Corona imagery the full
explanation of which remain closed from the Soviet side. The ministers
really pushed to the limit of capability in that effort only to not be able
to pull it off. Just because the hardware and personnel were there does not
mean a manned mission was possible or attempted. I think Leonov knows but
his critical health and security restrictions does not permit him to lay it
all out to our great loss historically less he loose his life from the
stress. So that door is closed unfortunately. I is however confirmed to me
repeatedly officially that US intelligence was indeed convinced that the
Soviets did try an attempt a mission for Zond in December 1968 but could not
pull it off for a mired of unexplained reasons.

This was also the issue for the 5L mission in which the ministers did force
changes in hardware planning in late December 1968 early 1969 making the 5L
mission different from the 3L mission hardware design. Yes the 5L mission
was a slightly heavier payload than the 3L mission pushing the limits of the
payload capacity of the N1 booster at that time. 

Sincerely,

Charles P. Vick

-----Original Message-----
From: fpspace-bounces at friends-partners.org
[mailto:fpspace-bounces at friends-partners.org] On Behalf Of Edwin Cameron
Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 5:34 AM
To: fpspace at friends-partners.org
Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] Any input?

Charlie, et al,

First, I congratulate the engineers, constructors and designers of the N1
for putting twelve men onto the surface of the Moon.  Yes, they were
astronauts not cosmonauts.  Nonetheless, it was the very presence of the N1
program, seen from orbiting reconnaissance satelites, that pushed the United
States' Congress to continue the Apollo program.  Without the visible
progress of the N1 program, it is not likely that Saturn V Apollo missions
would have continued to a Moon landing.

Four launched payloads on boosters 3L, 5L, 6L and 7L, each was different
from the others.  But, each booster was also different.  Only one of these
was launched in haste to beat Apollo 11...  What was the rush?  Apollo 8 had
already orbited the Moon, so a simple slingshot L1-type PROTON mission made
absoultely no sense.  After Apollo 8, a crewless N1 L1-type mission (3L)
didn't seem quite plausible.  For the July 3, 1969 5L launch attempt, a
manned mission more like Apollo 10 would have better fit the hurried N1
timetable, if not the full fledged lunar landing attempt.

I believe the statement by M. Keldysh after the conclusion of the Soyuz 6, 7
& 8 flights in 1969 made it pretty clear that the Soviet side of the Moon
Race was over and that permanent presence in orbit was their redirected
goal.  I have tried for many of the nearly 38 years to find definitive
photos or video of the N1 - 6L launch, especially since V.K. Karrask
sketched his version of an N1 shroud in my notes, July 1991.  It was NOT an
L1 or L3 shroud. 

I still hope we'll find the answers, and the history as it actually
happened, not just the way some wanted it to appear.

Cheers,

Ed

Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 10:55:10 -0400
From: "Charles Vick" <
<http://us.mc830.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cpvick@globalsecurity.org>
cpvick at globalsecurity.org>
Subject: [FPSPACE] Any input?

July 3rd cometh and we still after forty years do not know what the 5L
payload was or do we? 

Does anybody have any real input to this since it is now known that none of
the other N1 payloads were identical to the other previous and subsequent
payloads?

cpvick

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