[FPSPACE] A very interesting story!

Sat Jan 3 08:27:20 EST 2009

Tell me about it and that is why I said what I did and further As much as I
personally respect the inline design concepts presented by the old late Dr.
von Braun's team we must ask ourselves how much longer must out astronauts
endure these solid motors political payoff design bureau imposed design and
get killed for it in the name of politics before we learn that this is not
the way to go. No self respecting spacefarer devoting most of their lives
careers to the space program projects would in their right mind place
themselves on that mad dog Ares-1 pencil hammer head booster design. I do
not think this incoming administration wants the responsibility for this
suicide design. To quote several of the von Braun American team members in
relation to the present Ares-1 design "Not on my watch". I think that says
it all for the still surviving American team taught by the Dr. von Braun
team. I do not think that the solid motor providers are the only game in
town. Fine give them a new development contract from the Air force rapid
response military space booster for it requirements but get the solid motors
out of the human spaceflight program period. 

Do not tell me that everything is fine and that everything is ok with NASA
and the new Ares-1 human booster Orion CEV spacecraft program with  design
weight constraints ignoring safety requirements because that is to deceive
one's self into delusions of grandeur absolutely asking for certain
catastrophic failure and loss of human spacefarer's life.

I find the Constellation - Orion - spacecraft woefully inadequate to the
planned tasks as definitely not robust enough and lacking adequate
spacefarer structural and safety features that should be totally reworked. I
really dislike the use of solid propellants for the Ares boosters: low
specific impulse, high pollution, no shut down, etc. Dumb. It may be that
development of the spacecraft is what will take the most amount of time.  I
just hope they authorize a few more Shuttle flights to minimize the amount
of time we will have without a launch capability. The Ares-1 first stage
must be replaced.  Clearly the Ares-1 needs a new liquid propellant Saturn
first stage that will provide the robust payload mass that is required for a
robust vastly safer improved CEV Orion spacecraft. I can live with the
Ares-1 and Ares-5 upper last stages that I prefer to call the Boeing
Saturn-IVD and Saturn-IVE stages but not its first stages. A three or four
F-1 step throttled Saturn-V first stage would be better than any other
options available with an already developed proven vehicle. Basically this
is the old Saturn-V INT-20 with an S-1C first stage topped by an S-IVB
stage. If I have said it once I have said it a hundred times that Saturn-V
and its variant configurations are the answer that the American people spent
a fortune in treasure to develop only to have it thrown away which is total
failure in leadership. Ares-5 has already grown to the Saturn-V, 33 foot
diameter. To rebuild the Saturn-V based space program is to help rebuild the
once mighty industrial base that was America's strength and world
leadership. 

Attempts to redesign and up rate the yet to be fully proven EELV's
Delta-4/Atlas-5 class boosters to a human rated super heavy lift would cost
essentially as much as it would to bring back an improved proven highly
reliable Saturn-V with in the same time frame. To attempt to replace Shuttle
by returning to Shuttle derived Solid Rocket boosters with an upper stage
medium lift booster for the improved robust Orion-Crew Exploration Vehicle
(CEV) with far less assurance of safety and reliability and shuttle derived
heavy lift boosters is to return to the mistakes of the past. One is forced
to ask the question of how many times do we have to fly with this shuttle
hardware and how many crews do we have to kill before we learn the lesson
that this is not the way to go? To attempt to cluster seven Delta-4's common
stages to replace the Ares-1 first stage in an unwieldy cluster with no
cross feed is to recreate the very dangerous design seen in the past for
engine out and propellant cross feed capability much less the hydrogen gas
between the tanks explosion risk. That is why Saturn-V was designed as it
was to eliminate those safety issues.

Ares-1 Solid Motor        thrust    1,588 MT                      =
3,501,540 lbsf

Delta-4, RD-68             thrust    657,090 lbsf x7             = 4,599,630
lbsf

Atlas-5, RD-180            thrust    933,400 lbsf x4             = 3,733,600
lbsf

AJ-26/NK-33                thrust    330,750 lbsf x12            = 3,969,000
lbsf

F-1                               thrust    1,550,000 x3 or x4         =
4,650,000-6,200,000 lbsf

F-1 65%                       thrust    1,007,500 lbsf x3 or x4   =
3,022,500-4,030,000 lbsf

F-1                               thrust    1,553,200 lbsf x5            =
7,766,000 lbsf standard

F-1A's  Strap-ons          thrust    1.800,000 lbsf x2 & x4   = 3,600,000
-7,200,000 lbsf

Total combined  thrust core Saturn-V plus strap-ons         =
11,366,000-14,966,000 lbsf

Note: The excess thrust/payload capacity gives and provides for added
payload capacity 39-66 tons applicable to the CEV spacecraft testing as well
as a payload re-supply module for ISS. This is greater than the 25 tons
capacity of the Ares-1

Ref; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_INT-20

-----Original Message-----
From: fpspace-bounces at friends-partners.org
[mailto:fpspace-bounces at friends-partners.org] On Behalf Of
mattwriter at aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 11:25 PM
To: fpspace at friends-partners.org
Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] A very interesting story!

This story does not make a ton of sense. The Atlas and Delta EELVs are not
purely military rockets: NASA can purchase them commercially from ULA any
time they want.  EELVs carry commercial satellites and NASA payloads like
the GOES series. What NASA would have to pay ULA to do is build a man-rated
version, which the Pentagon has no interest in.  It's also not clear where
NASA and DoD ties need to be closer: they cooperate every day on everything
from range operations to the significant military support to shuttle
launches to missions like Orbital Express and vehicles like the X-43.  I am
all in favor of taking another look at whether replacing Ares with EELVs
makes sense, but this reads as if written by someone with no relevant
background.

Matt Bille

-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Vick <cpvick at globalsecurity.org>
To: 'Peter Pesavento' <pjp961 at svol.net>; fpspace at friends-partners.org
Sent: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 6:49 pm
Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] A very interesting story!

What we need is a robust proven liquid propellant booster that can be put
into production now with new updated flight avionics. No or very little new
R&D and concentrate on the rebuild of the launch test infrastructure we are
going to have to do anyway and the new robust safer than now Orion
spacecraft. Any other R & D effort is extra as we are in a geopolitical
Science and Technology Industrial base game for keeps and we are loosing
fast. I reject everything20offered so far for serious inadequacy or serious
safety issues and the required new R & D. Oh just how long did it take NASA
to test fire the J-2 once the order was given to do so and how about the F-1
that Astronaut Thomas Stafford strongly suggested that we put back in
production. Truly amazing and if we do not do it ... 

-----Original Message-----
From:  <mailto:fpspace-bounces at friends-partners.org>
fpspace-bounces at friends-partners.org [
<mailto:fpspace-bounces at friends-partners.org?>
mailto:fpspace-bounces at friends-partners.org] On Behalf Of Peter Pesavento
Sent: Friday, January 02, 2009 7:15 PM
To: fpspace at friends-partners.org
Subject: [FPSPACE] A very interesting story!

 <http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20090102/pl_bloomberg/aovrno0oj41g>
http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20090102/pl_bloomberg/aovrno0oj41g

It appears that the Obama Administration might want to return astronauts to
the Moon much sooner than the Chinese.

Obama Moves to Counter China With Pentagon-NASA Link

Demian McLean Demian Mclean Fri Jan 2, 3:58 pm ET 

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