[FPSPACE] No money to put astronauts back on Moon by 2020; Moonnot a rea...

Mon Aug 17 09:10:12 EDT 2009

Jens:

Probably the USSR could launch two (or more?) Vostok or Vostok-equivalent (spy satellite) spacecraft on need before 1962; but one could not rescue the other, because they could not rendezvous and keep station, let alone dock. That capability did not emerge in the US program until 1965. The US did the world's first prox ops. The USSR program demonstrated that capability a couple of years later when it brought together a pair of automated Soyuz spacecraft (I forget the Cosmos number).

A rescue capability existed for Skylab, though it was not demonstrated. The USSR demonstrated a rescue capability for the Salyuts; I'm straining my memory here, but I seem to recall that they sent up an unmanned replacement Soyuz during Salyut 6 or 7, in the late 1970s/early 1980s. Perhaps someone can fill in the details - I need to get the kid up to start her first full week of first grade!

Apollo/Soyuz was, of course, ostensibly about demonstrating a rescue capability, though it turned into a stunt. Soyuz couldn't rescue a full crew of Apollo astronauts, though Apollo could in theory rescue Soyuz cosmonauts. In any case, it was all moot until the 1990s, since Apollo was on its way out, and Shuttle/Salyut was already on the rocks.

David S. F. Portree

dsfportree at hotmail.com
dportree at usgs.gov

http://robotexplorers.blogspot.com/
http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/

http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/

From: dstdba at post4.tele.dk
To: dsfportree at hotmail.com; ljk4 at msn.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org
Subject: RE: [FPSPACE] No money to put astronauts back on Moon by 2020;Moonnot a rea...
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 2009 07:53:11 +0200

Hi fellow fpspace'rs,

You seem to focus on the stunt rather than on the rescue capability,
even though I specifically mentioned it!

>From 1962 onwards it would appear that the USSR had the option to
initiate a LON ( Launch On Need ) mission with short notice. Does
anybody know to what extent standby launch pads were actually held
ready at Baikonur for immediate rescue missions during the years?

What we do know, is that Atlantis was poised for a LON mission this
year during Endeavour's Hubble Repair mission. What we also know,
is that the 2003 Columbia mission did NOT have Atlantis ready for
a LON rescue mission. And that NASA consequently had no desire
to inspect Columbia's tiles, knowing they could do precious little to
remedy a fault.

Let me ask you Constellation program experts one question. Once
the Orion spacecraft is ready for launch, within how short an interval
can two consecutive manned launches take place? In my view the
launch pad complex for Orion should be designed to allow for two
simultaneous launch preparations, such that the Vostok-4 'stunt'
can be emulated and the lives of future otherwise marooned astronauts
be saved.

--
Jens Kieffer-Olsen
Slagelse, Denmark

-----Original Message-----
From: David Portree [mailto:dsfportree at hotmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 9:03 PM
To: ljk4 at msn.com; dstdba at post4.tele.dk; fpspace at friends-partners.org
Subject: RE: [FPSPACE] No money to put astronauts back on Moon by 2020;Moonnot a rea...

Larry & Jens:

Good point, Larry. New spectaculars for a new century!

Jens, recall that Vostok was basically a recoverable spysat (I know, the real situation was more complex). Vostok 3 and 4 couldn't maneuver or keep station. Their "rendezvous" was preordained at launch. Basically, it was about taking advantage of a previously demonstrated capability to launch and recover spysats at need to show off what seemed at first glance to be a Gemini-like capability. So, it was relevant to current perceived space rescue needs, but only in a very rudimentary way.

Is being able to launch piloted spacecraft on successive days a significant area of leadership? Again, maybe we should define what leadership means. Myself, I don't think think so. I have in mind broader leadership areas like Earth observations, space-based astronomy, advanced space technology development, and the like. I think that those will provide - or at least lead toward - our 21st-century spectaculars.

David S. F. Portree

dsfportree at hotmail.com
dportree at usgs.gov

http://robotexplorers.blogspot.com/
http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/

http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/

> From: ljk4 at msn.com
> To: dstdba at post4.tele.dk; fpspace at friends-partners.org
> Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 16:46:41 +0000
> Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] No money to put astronauts back on Moon by 2020; Moonnot a rea...
> 
> What is the rush? That is what has gotten astronauts and cosmonauts killed in the past. 
> 
> I don't care about and for space stunts. I want to see missions that expand our knowledge and help us establish a permanent presence out there. 
> 
> The world that made Vostok 3 and 4 is over. Time to focus on this century and the next ones. 
> 
> Larry 
> 
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jens Kieffer-Olsen <dstdba at post4.tele.dk>
> 
> Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 16:36:32 
> To: <fpspace at friends-partners.org>
> Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] No money to put astronauts back on Moon by 2020; Moon
> not a rea...
> 
> 
> Hi David, 
>   
> As we were reminded in Moscow back in 1996 our Russian hosts greatly 
> value the memory of the sensational 1962 launch of first Nikolayev in 
> Vostok-3 and less than 24 hours later Popovich in Vostok-4. 
>   
> That's an important capability, as recent shuttle crew rescue considerations 
> have emphasized. 
>   
> Am I right that the US have never launched a manned spacecraft less than 
> 11 days after the previous? ( Gemini-VI in 1965 ). 
>   
> -- 
> Jens Kieffer-Olsen 
> Slagelse, Denmark    
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Portree [mailto:dsfportree at hotmail.com] 
> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 1:35 AM
> To: kosmos327 at aol.com; fpspace at friends-partners.org
> Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] No money to put astronauts back on Moon by 2020;Moon not a rea...
> 
> David:
>  
> I'm sorry, I should have specified - I meant "leads in ways that matter." I don't think that flagpole sitting counts for much. Did all those long-duration Soviet flights yield biomedical data anyone could use? Only in a gross sense - they weren't gathered with much rigor. We had the most powerful rocket in the world - who has it now? We're close there, anyway. Number of launches - well, if your spacecraft are mainly recoverable spysats, then that matters, but if they operate for a long time without need for replacement, then it doesn't. Mass to orbit might be a better sign of leadership, assumning that the mass is doing something. Modules attached together - I think that the US is leading there, if you total up all the Mir and ISS modules launched on the Shuttle. Someone else can do the count, though, since I think it an arcane metric.
>  
> What are ways that matter? I think that to most people leadership in space is about exploring places ahead of everyone else and pulling off engineering feats no one has pulled off before. That sort of thing impresses people a lot more the metrics you cite. 
>  
> The problem here may be that we haven't defined what "leadership" means. 
> 
> David S. F. Portree
> 
> dsfportree at hotmail.com <mailto:dsfportree at hotmail.com> 
> dportree at usgs.gov <mailto:dportree at usgs.gov> 
>  
> http://robotexplorers.blogspot.com/ <http://robotexplorers.blogspot.com/> 
> http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/ <http://beyondapollo.blogspot.com/> 
>  
> http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/ <http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/About/People/DavidPortree/> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> ----------------
> From: Kosmos327 at aol.com
> Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 12:47:49 -0400
> To: fpspace at friends-partners.org
> Subject: Re: [FPSPACE] No money to put astronauts back on Moon by 2020; Moon not a rea...
> 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 8/14/2009 9:35:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, dsfportree at hotmail.com writes: Name an arena of achievement, and the US probably leads.
> 
> 
> Man hours in space, number of modules attached together in orbit, launches per year, most powerful rocket, longest manned mission ...I could go on, but why? 
>   
> Regards, 
>   
> David L. Rickman 
> 
> 
> ----------------
> 
> 
> ----------------
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