Re: Discussion: Pimps, Pride, and Politics

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Altink s.m. (
Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:51:43 +0200

I realize that in the Anglo Saxon tradition with some of its out of the
way anti-pimping laws, some people choose a strategy to destigmatize 'good
pimps' as personal or business partners. And I agree, it is quite ludicrous
and harmful to anyone involved to consider the social networks of
sexworkers as pimping networks. Some women feel they are exploited by 'a
pimp'. This usually means someone took ther/his money under false pretences
and subtle or gross threats. Maybe we should call this situation of 'theft
of earnings and blackmail with the stigmatization attached to sexwork',
instead of pimping.
As for the business managers, even if we are talking about 'good
brotheloperators or managers' they are quite a different party from
Let us consider the issue in the light of labour relations. It could be
argued that the relation between sexworkers and brotheloperators resembles
that between workers and employers. Certainly there is an inequality in the
field of powerrelations.
Employers should not belong in any trade union for workers. Good employers
may sit at the other end of the negotiation table, but never become part of
an union for workers. The same holds good for sexworkers and
brotheloperators. The 'good' brotheloperatiors should be placed as a
distinct party, with its own financial and social interests at the table,
but should never say they are part of a sexworkers'
unionlike-organization. And the good operators and sexworkers should fight
the 'bad and ugly' operators. Which in fact they claim to do: criminal and
abusive brotheloperators are bad for the struggle to obtain the council
licenses for the whole industry. But I must say, the 'good'
brotheloperators are very far and few between. And there is always the
possibility that good brotheloperators may seek 'bad associates' in
business or even him/herself will introduce abusive practices.
At the Red Thread it has by now become policy to refuse membership to 'good
brotheloperators or managers of escort agencies'. When for instance a
former sexworker wants to set up business and 'hire' another sexworker,
she/he is friendly referred to an organization of brotheloperators who
call themselves 'good brotheloperators'.
In short: If you decriminalize prostitution as labour, you should also
consider the different parties involved in the light of labour relations.

Please be careful with talking about Nazi pride even in a jokingly way.
Before I was born - I was born after the war and that should remain so-
there were a lot of nazipride marches all over Europe. The result was
devastation. Even now there are similar rightwing marches. The result still
is devastation. Of course some of these people marching regret now to have
done so and will therefore never take part in any Nazi Pride march

I resent personal attacks. And I don't like attacks on the listmanager who
takes the trouble to post all these messages.In other words, don't blame
the messenger.

> Van: Jyothi Kanics---Global Survival Network <>
> Aan: Multiple recipients of list <>
> Onderwerp: Discussion: Pimps, Pride, and Politics
> Datum: dinsdag 13 oktober 1998 1:28
> For some reason, this message will not post, so I am forwarding it
> -- list facilitator
> From: "Victoria Marinelli" <>
> To:
> Subject: Pimps, Pride, and Politics
> Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 22:20:04 PDT
> Carol Leigh writes:
> "If I call myself a queer or a fag because I am homosexual, the terms
> are still insulting and a form of attack when used by someone who is
> targeting me in a negative way. The same is true for other terms that
> have negative implications that have been used against various people...
> The problem I have with the way the term pimp is used is that in it's
> most negative sense..."
> Perhaps it would be appropriate for us to have a "Pimp Pride" march
> then. It would probably be terribly "fascist" of me to oppose such a
> thing. Indeed, as Urvashi Vaid, the previous director of NGLTF
> indicated in her interview with Sarah Shulman in "Girlfriends" some
> years back, it would probably also be "fascist" of me to oppose a
> contingency of bonafide Nazis who would choose to march in (in other
> words: infiltrate) a gay pride celebration. As these ludicrous
> distortions, taken to their logical conclusions, would have it, it would
> be wrong of me to object (exercise my free speech rights) if a Nazi Pimp
> contingency wanted to march. "Let's hear it for the goose-steppers!"
> Meanwhile the ones being trampled are accused of censorship. (If
> desired, see my piece in this Fall's Harvard Gay and Lesbian Review for
> some elaboration on these themes.)
> As the woman who founded one city's annual Queer Pride march (Olympia,
> Washington, in 1991), I'm pretty well versed in queer identity politics,
> and in the traditions concerning queer pride. I recall after that first
> glorious rally one man taking the open mike, saying that he was a
> pedophile. Previous speakers had included lesbians, gays, bisexuals,
> and transgendered persons; therefore, he reasoned, his implied exclusion
> from our community constituted nothing less than censorship and
> oppression. The stunned terror in the faces of hundreds of men and
> women, who had been brave enough to show up for our first march, told me
> I was not alone in my objection. I took back the mike. There was a
> moment of silence. Then I spoke, saying that we as a community would
> not tolerate the behavior of sexual abuse perpetrators, masquerading as
> our comrades in arms. That because the GLBT community was wrongly
> criminalized, did not mean that correctly criminalized pedophiles had
> the right to latch onto us, leeching "queer identity" from us in the
> process.
> Not one other person stepped forward to object to the pedophile's
> presence. They were too terrified. But in the weeks afterward, I was
> virtually accosted in the streets by queer men and women who thanked me
> for standing up for us, for refusing to let our community be slandered
> and undermined.
> And so, Carol, it is with pimps. Pimps are not prostitutes. I don't
> know what's so hard to understand about that. If a serial killer is
> found to have been sexually abused in his childhood, do we then say that
> he is not a serial killer? Maybe he's a "ritualized death manager".
> Prostitutes are raped, criminalized, forced into a caste. It's not at
> all surprising that some of these women and men become pimps later --
> what other knowledge, besides from systems of prostitution, have they
> had access to? I don't want to repeat myself here -- I already
> responded to some of this in my reply to John Davies' "Influencers" post
> -- but I'm floored at the indignation being raised on stop-traffic (and
> elsewhere, obviously) when it comes to confronting pimps.
> While I am troubled by this, Carol, I am not unmoved by your arguments
> that anti-pimping laws sometimes work against prostituted women. Almost
> all laws work against prostituted women -- this is a feature which is
> endemic to all societies reliant upon a prostitute-caste. But I also
> know that anti-pimping laws have been very helpful for many prostituted
> women. Obviously, we who are working in earnest against trafficking,
> are going to have to get creative in response to these challenges. Call
> me crazy, but I DON'T think that rallying to attack anti-pimping
> legislation, as the organizations with which you are affiliated have
> done, is a credible answer. Rather, those who would devote energy to
> such enterprises are providing us with a clear indication of their
> alliances, which no language of pride or politics can begin to
> ameliorate.
> Victoria Marinelli
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at
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From: Jyothi Kanics---Global Survival Network <>
Subject: news: Trafficking from Canada into USA

Does anyone else on the list have more information about this story?

Importing Prostitutes Results In Jail - (PORTLAND, OREGON) -- A Washington
man has pleaded guilty
to federal charges of planning to import two teenage girls from Canada as
prostitutes. Adam
Ingram will be sentenced tomorrow. Co-defendant Kevin Woods is expected to
plead guilty to
similar charges. The two girls are 13 and 14- years-old. Police arrested the
two men in December
after one of the girls used a customer's cell phone to call her mother in
Canada and the mother
called police in Portland.

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